Panda (Classic) Charmanda(er) - mania continued......

[pandamaniac]

Blu
Where the hell is Pallet Town?
Is it because ALL the new bits you have just bought would have made up a pallet!
Dave

 

[blu73]

lol.... Its a Pokemon reference, being that the I call the panda Charmander

http://pokemon.wikia.com/wiki/Pallet_Town

 

[panda panda]

I thought panda oil leaks were there to stop the sump from rusting away?

 

[blu73]

Too late for that, sump is rusty as anything..

Well I promised another update soon. And here it is, 450 mile round trip yesterday to get parts..

On a whim I bought all this.




That's a P75 engine, couple of ecus, p75 inlet and TB, fuel rail and injectors, 65A alternator, p75 exhaust mani and downpipe. Some other random items like a spacesaver wheel and cam shims and stuff Lee chucked in as freebie deal sweeteners. So yeah, will be cleaning this up a bit a going injection despite saying I wasn't going to anytime soon. And yes I did just waste loads of money on the old engine *shrugs*

 

[Freebo]

Too late for that, sump is rusty as anything..

Well I promised another update soon. And here it is, 450 mile round trip yesterday to get parts..

On a whim I bought all this.
View attachment 169455
View attachment 169456
View attachment 169457

That's a P75 engine, couple of ecus, p75 inlet and TB, fuel rail and injectors, 65A alternator, p75 exhaust mani and downpipe. Some other random items like a spacesaver wheel and cam shims and stuff Lee chucked in as freebie deal sweeteners. So yeah, will be cleaning this up a bit a going injection despite saying I wasn't going to anytime soon. And yes I did just waste loads of money on the old engine *shrugs*

Oooh, watching intently now! I think im gonna drop a bigger engine in the 4x4 but im unsure which to go for!

 

[blu73]

a 1.3 mjet would be epic.. not as easy though, anything FIRE based should be easy peasy though.
old wisdom would say 8v is better for 4x4 as more low down torque than a 16v - would say the p75 is prob the best 8v FIRE myself, but you could also argue that the newer bigger 16v engines prob have as much if not more torque anyway. I don't know what the specs are like for the more modern 8v though, isn't there a 1.4 8v engine now?

 

[blu73]

Right well, just so you all don't expect something to happen immediately... I do have most of the stuff i need to do this swap but there is a few things missing still.
I didn't get a flywheel with the engine and i'm sure i could probably use the panda one I have sourced a seicento 1.1 flywheel and new clutch kit - but i need to go collect that from Paul who bought my turbo seicento at some point. I need to sort out a fuel pump and probably buy some more suitable fuel line to go with it along with some inline filters. And mulling over changing the rad for something slightly bigger with an external expansion tank - for no real reason other than i prefer the setup and this would be a good time, maybe cento stuff could be made to fit, i do have a seicento expansion tank already too.
Think I have pretty much everything else - but added to them missing items my engine crane is current on loan, should be back in a few weeks - yes i could struggle to do this without but there isn't much point as i'm away at Stars Celebration in London this weekend, my birthday is just after the following weekend so i will most likely be to drunk for cars next weekend and then by the next weekend i should hopefully have a crane back.
So prob gonna be 3-4 weeks before anything else exciting happens.

edit: just remembered, i need to get a new sump (its not leaky but it is crusty) and prob service items for this new engine also.

 

[blu73]

Right well.. nothing has really happened as of yet, got rid of the sofa out the garage though which clears a little space to work....

Also spent a while cleaning the engine up a bit.



Pics don't really do all the effort justice tbh. It's come up really well. Most the block has the grey factory paint left. And all that crud on that plastic tray was on the engine just before that pic lol

I can confirm that the engine number starts 176A8 so it's defo a proper 75 engine rather than a 60 with 75 head on it. 75s have oil squirters if anyone wasn't sure on the difference. No great advantage really but good to have if tuning or turbocharging

Anyhoo, I can't tell from my eper if the carb'd panda has some kinda of in tank strainer, I assume not and it just has the online filter up near the mech fuel pump. Can someone confirm?

Along the same line of thinking.. looking at the eper it looks like the whole fuel sender from an injection panda might fit my tank but I'm well aware the fact it looks same on the eper does not mean they are the same tank in reality. Am I right in assuming they are different?

Currently planning to use inline pump and somehow get a bag strainer on the pickup tube for pre-pump filtration as you can't really use normal inline as a prefilter as they put too much stress on the pump and also get clogged up. But if I could use a normal injection fuel sender unit that would epic as I do like a clean install.... maybe I should look at prices of tanks but that's not for now, that's for later once up and running.

As usual, thoughts and opinions appreciated

 

[blu73]

OK so.... productive afternoon...


I had to drop pressure plate off to get enough clearance to get it out which clearly I cannot do in reverse and line everything up... I have seen people on here take them out and put them back leaving the box in so what am I missing or doing wrong as I see no way to get the new engine in without dropping the box and putting them in as a unit....

 

[AndyPanda4x4]

OK so.... productive afternoon...
View attachment 170146

I had to drop pressure plate off to get enough clearance to get it out which clearly I cannot do in reverse and line everything up... I have seen people on here take them out and put them back leaving the box in so what am I missing or doing wrong as I see no way to get the new engine in without dropping the box and putting them in as a unit....

I had to ask Dragon Man before I did my first one.

If you take off the top gearbox mounting completely you can push the box over enough to lift the engine out separate. It can be a pig lining up the final drive shaft when putting it back in but persevere and you shall succeed.

 

[Dragon Man]

getting the splines on the gearbox to match up to the clutch plate can be a bugger.

getting the engine out, its best to just pull out both drive shafts, unbolt the engine with gearbox still attached and rest it on the floor, then jack the car up as high as you can and pull the lot out through the bottom.

if you are a badass (lol) like me you just leave the dive shafts in situ (dont touch them), unbolt all the bolts on the bell housing and remove starter, unbolting the gearbox mount FROM the gearbox AND car shell, pushing the gearbox as far over as you can then just lift the engine out.. i managed without using a hoist or engine lift, and i did it with everything still on the car and on the engine!

if you are putting a 1.2 in though, they are a bit more heavy and need a hefty pole and 2 people to lift and drop the engine in onto a jack so it can be moved and waddled around till the damn gearbox spline lines up with the clutch plate.

also dont forget to keep turning one of the drive shafts and leave the gearbox in gear.. turning the drive shaft also turns the input shaft and really helps when it comes to relocating the splines.

 

[AndyPanda4x4]

Does that make me a badass of equal measure then John?

 

[blu73]

Ah i see, that makes sense removing that mount completely, i disconnected it from the box but the mount is still attached to car so it wouldn't budge over any more... so simple, funny how in the moment you just sometimes don't see they obvious. It was pretty fiddly getting the pressure plate off, much harder i am sure than dropping the mount off the car haha.

What you describe is pretty much exactly how I do a cento, i never took just the engine out on a cento, always together for ease - slightly different as it has the dry shaft but what i used to do there was just disconnect the spindle from the bottom of the shock and then pull the top of the spindle down and thats enough for the shafts to drop out the box, then just bag the ends and cable tie them out the way. I'm assuming from what you say John you can just completely leave the shafts and push the box one way and get one shaft out then push the other way to get the other out??

i was trying to avoid dropping the box just so i didn't have to drain the brand new oil out of it etc.. But looking at it now i think for the sake of a small amount of work to drop the box out I will just take it out and stick it on the new engine and put it all in together.

Another just question for you guru's of panda.... ignoring the cable vs rod linkages, is the wet shaft box from a seicento sx the same as a panda box. I was thinking they would have much better gear ratios for a p75 - much much longer, make it so much better on the open road - less urgent on the twisties but i think the extra power will more than make up for that.

 

[Dragon Man]

hmm well fallout does well (94mph) and that is with the rack of crap on the roof. dont forget he is on a 4x4 box with short ratio gears. with standard 2 wheel drive gearbox i bet it would do over 100mph!
i am not actually sure of the ratios of the panda and cinq.. a sporting gearbox would fit a panda.. but like you said, gear linkages..

 

[blu73]

oh i'm sure it would blast along fine with its own box on it I don't know any of the exact ratios either (bar mk1 puntos as Didge posted them all in his cabrio thread).

I do know that a cento sporting on 185/50r14 tyres does 60mph at about 3k rpm in 5th, I also know that the seicento sx has a wet shaft box and longer gears than a sporting one. So I was just thinking that box is prob same as the panda one just with longer gears and cables and would be an excellent addition. Can't be that hard to convert the box to rods, never tried it but knowing fiat it may be as easy as just unbolting the whole selector plate and mech and bolting on the rod type from panda box.... That or could convert the panda to cables, thats defo doable.

Bar taking stuff out of Char I'm basically to skint atm to buy any of the bits i need for the other engine yet, and I'm not gonna put that in until its all serviced, just so much easier to work on it out the car so will do everything out the car and then stick it in, so i have a month or so to mull over changing the box. A totally unnecessary swap for sure, but for longer trips to shows and the like it would be so much comfier. Like I say i don't know actual ratios but if i hark back to cento life again, when I had the 16v cinq and my mate had a 16v sei wth sx box my car would just leave his for dust but once upto speed when i was at top of 5th gear he could romp past in 4th so they are defo much longer gears...

 

[Didge3]

On a completely private downhill test track Char' hit an indicated 98mph in 5th, which was probably around 5500-6000rpm
But I assume you're not worried about top end so much, rather just having decent acceleration in gear rather than having to change up and down unnecessarily due to short gears

Found the picture, again on private test track. Tank was almost empty for as little weight as possible

 

[blu73]

i'm not worried about the speed or acceleration, sure it will be fine... just longer gears would make it cruise along at lower rpm which would just be comfier is all. As previously stated i'm totally sure it will be fine as is, just thinking long term it may feel just nicer all round with slightly longer gears when it has double the power

 

[blu73]

Well, progress, well kkinda progress.

Done a big order of parts today including:
1. 180mm clutch kit (to match seicento flywheel I am using)
2. Uno turbo inline fuel filter (discovered the unoT has inline filter and inline electric pump from factory so using that setup)
3. Inline fuel pump
4. Front and rear crank seals
5. Waterpump
6. Timing belt - will use the new tensioner fitted to the 750 rather than buy another new one
7. Aux belt
8. Sump & loctite sealer
9. Timing belt cover
10. Oil
11. Oil flush
12. Couple of oil filters (pre and post flush)
13. Coolant flush
14. Coolant

As with belt tensioner, I will take the new thermostat from the 750 and use that and also the brand new metal water rail from behind the waterpump. And writing this now I realise I have forgot to order a new rocker cover gasket, I'll go do that now.

So once all that arrives I will do a little engine freshen up and then whack it in the car, ready for the fun part (not), wiring.

 

[Didge3]

So once all that arrives I will do a little engine freshen up and then whack it in the car, ready for the fun part (not), wiring.

Must be a lot easier than Sei engine swap, not many wires on the Panda to start with

Does this mean the 750 has seen its last rotation after thundering its many many owners about for 24 years (almost exactly to date of first reg iirc)

 

[blu73]

mmmm, its pretty much drops straight in a sei, well an spi sei or cinq, they have seperate body and engine looms that connect together with whats known as a D4 connector. So really that would be easier. Swap into a sei mpi would be much trickier although i suspect you could pretty much leave the sei mpi loom in the car and use that. Shouldn't be all that hard in the panda, basically connect the loom to the engine sensors and ecu, give it a good switched 12v and connect up a few earths and it should work i think. The ecu i have is supposedly pre-immobilser so don't have to worry about any of that. Most of the stuff that connects to the body loom of the punto won't really be needed, i should be able to use one of the pins to run the tacho and i think thats about it, speedo is obviously cable so thats no issue. I've not really looked at that side yet but should be simple enough, certainly easier than doing the 16v swap i did in my cinq anyway. I can always ask dragonman if i get stuck

As for the 750, I'm not sure of its destiny - Paul who owns my old turbo seicento was asking about having the crank to make a crazy revving turbo engine. But we shall see, i might keep it as parts, i might sell it as a whole, I got space to keep it too so just see what happens i guess.