Technical Changing Water Pump not cambelt

[typecastboy]

My current project is pouring coolant or rather rusty water out of the water pump. Water is not pumping round the engine so I’m guessing the seal has failed.

My mobile mechanic who normally does the cambelt for me is not working at the moment due to his missus having another baby. I’ve bought a new cambelt and water pump, however the belt was done in 2017 only about 20k miles ago so doesn’t really need doing. I’m not confident in doing this myself but I’m wondering if I could change the water pump only without disturbing anything?

I know the cambelt drives the pump so the belt has to at least loosen to allow the pump to come out but am I on dodgy ground without using a locking kit and not really knowing what I’m doing.

Cambelts scare me but I’m stuck on progress on the car until I can get a new pump in.

 

[typecastboy]

I’ve since watched a video and it seems you actually have to remove the belt. Scares the bejesus out of me!

 

[The Panda Nut]

Always change the belt at the same time. ALWAYS. Belts are so cheap its not worth not changing them even if fairly new. Change the tensioners too or you may have to do the whole job again before time!!!

If you get all the marks lined up and preferably lock the camshaft too the rest is just spannering. albeit knucklbashingly tight spannering.

Once completed if in any doubt and I always do this anyway... disconnect HT leads and rotate the engine, by hand, to make certain everything is as should be. Re align timing marks at No1 TDC and then rotate engine with the cam cover off. Watch the sequence of valve opening each time the engine turns. 4 complete rotations should allow you to see that the sequence is as it should be from first principles.

You can get the cam locking tools on ebay or maybe someone would lend one?

I have not ever tried this but suspect if you did so the danger of mucking up the timing while trying to short cut it is higher than tackling the whole job. As above the belts been there too long to leave it in place. Personally would change it if disturbed after three weeks let along 3 years!

 

[jrkitching]

If you get all the marks lined up

I don't think there are any marks on the 500. You need the proper locking tools; even the professionals can mess up if they try to get by without them.

@typecastboy, given the number of cars you work with, I'd have thought the investment in acquiring both a decent set of locking tools and the knowledge to use them would repay itself many times over; a fresh cambelt, tensioner and water pump would surely be a selling point on every car you move on.

I wouldn't reuse the belt either (they're not that expensive), but if you do, at least ensure it's properly marked so that it goes back with the same direction of rotation as it came off with.

 

[typecastboy]

The mechanic who normally does them bought the locking kit and I have bought the belt too but until I watched a video of a Scottish fella and his son doing one with no locking kit, they made it look really easy.

It’s the timing marks that confuse me. In that video they were going on about looking up the marks somewhere on line.

As far as I understood, you mark the belt and the “cog” top and bottom and then mark the new belt in the same place and then make sure you put the marked new belt on so the marks line up with the marks on the “cogs”. Am I reading that right?

 

[portland_bill]

At 3 years old, if the belt is disturbed, it should be replaced. As this is not a safe engine, and you have the belt, no reason to not fit it.

To replace the pump, you have to release the tension on the belt, trying to keep it in situ at that point will be difficult, but possible.

I have seen videos of, but never done myself, a trick of cutting the belt in half. The old one not the new one.
Whilst still tensioned, turn the engine over while cutting the belt along its length half-way across. Once you've done a full turn, you effectively have two half-belts. Now remove the outer half. Might be easier with the tensioner eased a little, but not fully released. Marking belt and pulleys not a bad idea.
In this state, you need to devise a method of holding the position of belt/pulleys, while you replace the pump.
Once done, fit the new belt. It will of course only go onto the pulleys half-way, as the inner part of the old belt is still there. Once in place, and you are happy that marks are still aligned, you can cut the inner part of the old belt off, and slip the new belt on fully. Then tension it. Needs to be tensioned tighter than normal at first, rotate engine two turns, then set tensoin to normal.

Good luck with that. I've seen/heard of this many times, never tried it myself, never will.

 

[Gina500]

As far as I understood, you mark the belt and the “cog” top and bottom and then mark the new belt in the same place and then make sure you put the marked new belt on so the marks line up with the marks on the “cogs”. Am I reading that right?

I did it like this on a different car (with a safe engine, though) and it worked fine, no problems. Did not have to lock anything on that one.
I would think that on the Fiat, when you use the cam locking tools & marking, it should work ok.
The idea with the slit belt sounds fine when you leave the water pump in place, but I'd have doubts if you take it out and the belt has no tension any more. I tend to think you would need the locking tools as well.

I do agree with jrkitching - you work on so many cars, it's worth investing in the tools and doing one yourself. You still have your mechanic in the background if all fails. The second one then probably is a piece of cake.

 

[Officina red]

Can you not use a different mobile mechanic for this one job ?

 

[varesecrazy]

Can you not use a different mobile mechanic for this one job ?

Or do all the donkey work yourself.
so all 'he' has to do is swap the pump and tension the new belt .. an hours work

 

[Officina red]

Or do all the donkey work yourself.
so all 'he' has to do is swap the pump and tension the new belt .. an hours work

Either option is valid, but with this car, get it done and moved on.

 

[jrkitching]

Can you not use a different mobile mechanic for this one job ?

Thing is, you'd need to find a mobile mechanic with the correct tools; most probably won't have them. I certainly wouldn't want to give the job to someone who'd never done a belt change on a modern VVT Fiat and thought they could fudge their way through the job by relying on their generic skill set.

Someone used to working on a 'safe' engine with fixed valve timing, keyed sprockets and clearly visible timing marks will soon find themselves seriously out of their depth here.

Or do all the donkey work yourself.
so all 'he' has to do is swap the pump and tension the new belt .. an hours work

On this engine, I wouldn't want to touch the belt until I'd got both crankshaft & camshaft safely locked; there's just too much risk of bending something.

 

[typecastboy]

At 3 years old, if the belt is disturbed, it should be replaced. As this is not a safe engine, and you have the belt, no reason to not fit it.

To replace the pump, you have to release the tension on the belt, trying to keep it in situ at that point will be difficult, but possible.

I have seen videos of, but never done myself, a trick of cutting the belt in half. The old one not the new one.
Whilst still tensioned, turn the engine over while cutting the belt along its length half-way across. Once you've done a full turn, you effectively have two half-belts. Now remove the outer half. Might be easier with the tensioner eased a little, but not fully released. Marking belt and pulleys not a bad idea.
In this state, you need to devise a method of holding the position of belt/pulleys, while you replace the pump.
Once done, fit the new belt. It will of course only go onto the pulleys half-way, as the inner part of the old belt is still there. Once in place, and you are happy that marks are still aligned, you can cut the inner part of the old belt off, and slip the new belt on fully. Then tension it. Needs to be tensioned tighter than normal at first, rotate engine two turns, then set tensoin to normal.

Good luck with that. I've seen/heard of this many times, never tried it myself, never will.

I’ve seen a video of someone doing this with the engine running [emoji3]

 

[varesecrazy]

Thing is, you'd need to find a mobile mechanic with the correct tools

On this engine, I wouldn't want to touch the belt until I'd got both crankshaft & camshaft safely locked; there's just too much risk of bending something.

Precisely..

Just like in surgery..

You get somebody who is proficient to do whatever is necessary to access the crucial bit

An expert does the crucial bit

The competent one puts it all back as they found it

 

[typecastboy]

You’re all absolutely right. I really should buy a decent set of tools, watch lots of videos and give it a go. It scares me somewhat and as JR says, it’s a selling point. I do it, or rather my mechanic does it on all the cars I can’t guarantee have had it done that are around the age/mileage that it should be and it really is something I should learn to do.

Maybe I’ll give it a go. What could possibly go wrong ???

 

[jrkitching]

What could possibly go wrong

I've lost count of the number of posts I've seen from folks reporting poor engine performance after a cambelt change; it's perhaps somewhat ironic that these posts far, far outweigh those from folks who've actually had a belt fail in service.

But don't let that put you off; rather take it as a helpful warning to be careful, and to invest in a decent set of locking tools. Most issues arise as a result of folks either rushing things and/or trying to get by without investing in the proper equipment.

At least you are going to do this often enough to justify getting both the tools and the experience. Most of us do it once, taking ages to double check everything is correct, and then have forgotten everything four years later when it's time to do it again, so have to go through the whole learning experience again.

I've every confidence in you. Some of what you've done successfully before is objectively way harder than this.

 

[typecastboy]

I've lost count of the number of posts I've seen from folks reporting poor engine performance after a cambelt change; it's perhaps somewhat ironic that these posts far, far outweigh those from folks who've actually had a belt fail in service.

But don't let that put you off; rather take it as a helpful warning to be careful, and to invest in a decent set of locking tools. Most issues arise as a result of folks either rushing things and/or trying to get by without investing in the proper equipment.

At least you are going to do this often enough to justify getting both the tools and the experience. Most of us do it once, taking ages to double check everything is correct, and then have forgotten everything four years later when it's time to do it again, so have to go through the whole learning experience again.

I've every confidence in you. Some of what you've done successfully before is objectively way harder than this.

You have more faith in me than I have in myself [emoji3] I think it’s one of those things that is probably easier than you think as long as you do it methodically. Gotta give it a go I think.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

All a matter of confidence I suppose? from what everyone here is saying about you I think buying your own timing tools would be a great investment for you. I've just looked on ebay and seen a complete kit for under £25. I bought the Neilsen kit which looks very similar and it worked absolutely fine.

At the risk of repeating myself, you might like to read what I wrote about doing Becky's belt (our Panda) and I then followed up by doing my boys VVT Punto 1.4 8 valve which was no more difficult: https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/459903-beckys-timing-belt-ongoing-saga.html.

You'll notice I was interested in exploring whether the belt could be changed without the timing tools? My answer would be yes - as long as you are sure someone has not previously wrongly positioned and then retightened the top sprocket. So if you're doing a first belt change you are pretty sure to be safe. On an older/high mileage vehicle I'd be checking things with the timing tools in case some other "bandit" has been in there before you and set up the top sprocket wrongly. On much older cars the top sprocket was keyed to the cam so this missalignment couldn't happen - these engines have timing marks on their sprockets and casings and you don't need timing tools.

If you are going to do it without the timing tools then firstly take the spark plugs out so the engine won't be affected by compression and then make tippex marks on the top (camshaft) sprocket and the belt then the bottom, smaller, (crankshaft) sprocket and belt. The mesh with the water pump is of no importance so doesn't need to be marked. If you are feeling very nervous you can also mark the head and oil pump casing at the same time as you mark the belt and sprockets just to give yourself an additional reference point. You might notice I marked the head in one of the illustrations because I wanted a positive reference in case the cam turned - the crank is most unlikely to turn, especially if you've removed the plugs.

Now, with sprockets, belt (marked in 2 places, one at the top and one at the bottom) and maybe casings all tippex marked you can slacken the tensioner and remove the belt. Now remove the water pump and have some fun cleaning off the sealant from the front of the block. Apply sealant to the new pump (I like Loctite SI 5980 because it's sensor friendly) and install.

Now take great care to mark up your new timing belt (I strongly agree with everyone here in that you would NEVER refit a used belt) with tippex marks in the same place as the ones you marked on the old belt before removing it. I usually put one belt on top of the other to transfer the marks and then count teeth at least twice before I'm happy I've got it right. If you are out by even one tooth your engine is going to run very poorly and if you get it out by several teeth on the VVT engines you may end up damaging the engine, so take your time and concentrate. It's not difficult, don't let it "phaze" you, just take care over it and be accurate. Oh, and don't use black board chalk, you're very likely to rub it off during fitting - guess how I know that!

Now fit the new belt round the crank sprocket first with the new mark you just made on the belt lining up with the mark on the sprocket when you started. Wedge it in place with a small socket, or something suitable, under the belt between the belt and the bottom flange on the oil pump casing. (This is just to stop the belt falling off or jumping a tooth as you work with it) now feed the belt round the water pump pulley, making sure the teeth are meshed and not riding on top of the teeth. Now the difficult bit. You need to get the belt fed round the top pulley with the mark you've made on the belt lining up with the mark you made on the sprocket before you started taking it all to pieces whilst at the same time feeding the belt round the inside of the idler bearing. You may find the pressure of the valve springs acting on the cam has made the cam pulley rotate a little so you're having difficulty lining the tippex marks up. Just move the sprocket by turning the cam till it all lines up and you can slip the belt on. It's unlikely the cam will have to be turned very much to get the marks lined up. You could do this either by gripping the cam (between the lobes - not directly on a polished lobe surface!) or by using a spanner, or it might be a female torx (The Punto had one of those) on the front bolt on the cam sprocket. The sprocket retaining bolt is done up EXTREMELY tightly so your chances of slackening it off doing this are probably nil (don't come crying to me if you are the exception to the rule though, will you?) Now tighten the idler making sure you keep the belt tight on the water pump side (ie the belt run from the crank sprocket over the water pump sprocket and up to the cam sprocket).

Now carefully check that the marks on the crank sprocket and belt line up, whilst at the same time, the mark on the cam sprocket and the belt also line up. By the way, if you put the belt flat on the ground, you will noticed that the marks you have made on it are closer together if you count them one way (say clockwise) compared with the other way (anticlockwise). You'll find the shorter distance is on the run from the crank via the water pump to the cam. I like to put an arrow between the two marks to clearly identify this side to avoid confusion when fitting.

Finally, once everything is fully tightened up, SLOWLY turn the engine over through a minimum of two crankshaft revolutions in normal DOR - it's very bad practice to turn any engine backwards, especially if it's a chain driven cam type - feeling all the time for any sign of resistance. If you've got it wrong you will feel the crankshaft come to a solid stop as the piston contacts the valve. For this reason you should always do this with the plugs out so no compression can interfere and also you need to turn the engine SLOWLY otherwise the energy stored in the flywheel, even being rotated at quite modest speed by hand, can be enough to do significant damage. I like to do this using either a combination spanner or "T" bar because then I can stop the rotation very quickly if I were to feel anything. I wouldn't use a ratchet because you couldn't bring it to a rapid stop.

Oh, and by the way, after going your two revs, don't expect the tippex marks on the belt to be lining up with the marks on the sprockets. It'll be many revolutions before they line up again, so be careful to double check your marks are lining up BEFORE you do your 2 rev clearance check.

If all this checks out I like to now swing the engine over for several revs to settle the belt into it's normal running position, which, by the way is towards the back of the cam sprocket (which you can see clearly if you look at the ninth picture in my description). The belt run is controlled by the flange faces on the water pump and they all run towards the rear of the sprocket like this. It upset me first time I saw it as I expected to see the belt running in the middle of the sprocket! After turning the engine over a few times you may find the tensioner could take a wee "fine tune" just to end up with the marks aligning perfectly.

Hope you found that interesting? As to whether you should do it? I suppose that depends on you being happy to attempt it and prepared to accept the consequences of getting it wrong. For me It's fun and I do these things because I get a kick out of it. Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide to do. It's not a difficult engine to do a belt on, but, if your engine is interference, the consequences of getting it wrong are dire.

 

[typecastboy]

All a matter of confidence I suppose? from what everyone here is saying about you I think buying your own timing tools would be a great investment for you. I've just looked on ebay and seen a complete kit for under £25. I bought the Neilsen kit which looks very similar and it worked absolutely fine.

At the risk of repeating myself, you might like to read what I wrote about doing Becky's belt (our Panda) and I then followed up by doing my boys VVT Punto 1.4 8 valve which was no more difficult: https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/459903-beckys-timing-belt-ongoing-saga.html.

You'll notice I was interested in exploring whether the belt could be changed without the timing tools? My answer would be yes - as long as you are sure someone has not previously wrongly positioned and then retightened the top sprocket. So if you're doing a first belt change you are pretty sure to be safe. On an older/high mileage vehicle I'd be checking things with the timing tools in case some other "bandit" has been in there before you and set up the top sprocket wrongly. On much older cars the top sprocket was keyed to the cam so this missalignment couldn't happen - these engines have timing marks on their sprockets and casings and you don't need timing tools.

If you are going to do it without the timing tools then firstly take the spark plugs out so the engine won't be affected by compression and then make tippex marks on the top (camshaft) sprocket and the belt then the bottom, smaller, (crankshaft) sprocket and belt. The mesh with the water pump is of no importance so doesn't need to be marked. If you are feeling very nervous you can also mark the head and oil pump casing at the same time as you mark the belt and sprockets just to give yourself an additional reference point. You might notice I marked the head in one of the illustrations because I wanted a positive reference in case the cam turned - the crank is most unlikely to turn, especially if you've removed the plugs.

Now, with sprockets, belt (marked in 2 places, one at the top and one at the bottom) and maybe casings all tippex marked you can slacken the tensioner and remove the belt. Now remove the water pump and have some fun cleaning off the sealant from the front of the block. Apply sealant to the new pump (I like Loctite SI 5980 because it's sensor friendly) and install.

Now take great care to mark up your new timing belt (I strongly agree with everyone here in that you would NEVER refit a used belt) with tippex marks in the same place as the ones you marked on the old belt before removing it. I usually put one belt on top of the other to transfer the marks and then count teeth at least twice before I'm happy I've got it right. If you are out by even one tooth your engine is going to run very poorly and if you get it out by several teeth on the VVT engines you may end up damaging the engine, so take your time and concentrate. It's not difficult, don't let it "phaze" you, just take care over it and be accurate. Oh, and don't use black board chalk, you're very likely to rub it off during fitting - guess how I know that!

Now fit the new belt round the crank sprocket first with the new mark you just made on the belt lining up with the mark on the sprocket when you started. Wedge it in place with a small socket, or something suitable, under the belt between the belt and the bottom flange on the oil pump casing. (This is just to stop the belt falling off or jumping a tooth as you work with it) now feed the belt round the water pump pulley, making sure the teeth are meshed and not riding on top of the teeth. Now the difficult bit. You need to get the belt fed round the top pulley with the mark you've made on the belt lining up with the mark you made on the sprocket before you started taking it all to pieces whilst at the same time feeding the belt round the inside of the idler bearing. You may find the pressure of the valve springs acting on the cam has made the cam pulley rotate a little so you're having difficulty lining the tippex marks up. Just move the sprocket by turning the cam till it all lines up and you can slip the belt on. It's unlikely the cam will have to be turned very much to get the marks lined up. You could do this either by gripping the cam (between the lobes - not directly on a polished lobe surface!) or by using a spanner, or it might be a female torx (The Punto had one of those) on the front bolt on the cam sprocket. The sprocket retaining bolt is done up EXTREMELY tightly so your chances of slackening it off doing this are probably nil (don't come crying to me if you are the exception to the rule though, will you?) Now tighten the idler making sure you keep the belt tight on the water pump side (ie the belt run from the crank sprocket over the water pump sprocket and up to the cam sprocket).

Now carefully check that the marks on the crank sprocket and belt line up, whilst at the same time, the mark on the cam sprocket and the belt also line up. By the way, if you put the belt flat on the ground, you will noticed that the marks you have made on it are closer together if you count them one way (say clockwise) compared with the other way (anticlockwise). You'll find the shorter distance is on the run from the crank via the water pump to the cam. I like to put an arrow between the two marks to clearly identify this side to avoid confusion when fitting.

Finally, once everything is fully tightened up, SLOWLY turn the engine over through a minimum of two crankshaft revolutions in normal DOR - it's very bad practice to turn any engine backwards, especially if it's a chain driven cam type - feeling all the time for any sign of resistance. If you've got it wrong you will feel the crankshaft come to a solid stop as the piston contacts the valve. For this reason you should always do this with the plugs out so no compression can interfere and also you need to turn the engine SLOWLY otherwise the energy stored in the flywheel, even being rotated at quite modest speed by hand, can be enough to do significant damage. I like to do this using either a combination spanner or "T" bar because then I can stop the rotation very quickly if I were to feel anything. I wouldn't use a ratchet because you couldn't bring it to a rapid stop.

Oh, and by the way, after going your two revs, don't expect the tippex marks on the belt to be lining up with the marks on the sprockets. It'll be many revolutions before they line up again, so be careful to double check your marks are lining up BEFORE you do your 2 rev clearance check.

If all this checks out I like to now swing the engine over for several revs to settle the belt into it's normal running position, which, by the way is towards the back of the cam sprocket (which you can see clearly if you look at the ninth picture in my description). The belt run is controlled by the flange faces on the water pump and they all run towards the rear of the sprocket like this. It upset me first time I saw it as I expected to see the belt running in the middle of the sprocket! After turning the engine over a few times you may find the tensioner could take a wee "fine tune" just to end up with the marks aligning perfectly.

Hope you found that interesting? As to whether you should do it? I suppose that depends on you being happy to attempt it and prepared to accept the consequences of getting it wrong. For me It's fun and I do these things because I get a kick out of it. Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide to do. It's not a difficult engine to do a belt on, but, if your engine is interference, the consequences of getting it wrong are dire.

Thanks for that. I understood most of it. Will take a good look at your link. Thank you.