Technical Car won't start

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Technical Car won't start

AndyRKett

Distinguished member
Joined
May 23, 2011
Messages
14,279
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Location
Norfolk UK
Fortunately I know why

Symptoms:
Lights come on battery seems strong turn key and nothing no attempt from the starter motor

Rocked the car tried again a couple of starter motor solenoid clicks still won't start

Why?:

Typical battery earth strap issue which my car suffers from has already had a brand new cable in 2009 but a few years on and it's become bad again.

It currently looks like this ImageUploadedByFIAT Forum1419284150.088234.jpg

Guess what I'll be doing tomorrow?
 
lather the friggin thing with copper grease or even vaseline to repel moisture

I snapped mine due to the stud bee stuck solid with the bolt, i put a new alternator clamp terminal on mine and heatshrinked and covered it up best i can
Copper covered it and it seems to be holding up fine.....

Ziggy


As I said further up that's actually the OEM strap after 4-5 years use, I hate smoothering things in grease because it gets everywhere when you want to do any work, what I intend to do I fit a new ring connector and protect it well with heat shrink.

To do a really top job you put silicon sealant on the cable end then heat shrink over the top so the sealant gets squashed in to all the little spaces water would get then sets protecting the cable from any further ingress
 
As I said further up that's actually the OEM strap after 4-5 years use, I hate smoothering things in grease because it gets everywhere when you want to do any work, what I intend to do I fit a new ring connector and protect it well with heat shrink.

To do a really top job you put silicon sealant on the cable end then heat shrink over the top so the sealant gets squashed in to all the little spaces water would get then sets protecting the cable from any further ingress


there is that possibility yes :)

Depends if your not worried about leaving a little mess or not

Ziggy
 
As I live 20miles from civilisation (or a shop where I can get supplies) I've fitted a second engine earth between the cam chain cover and the engine mount, which I may just leave as a fail safe up out of the way of road salt water and grime

ImageUploadedByFIAT Forum1419342448.857846.jpg
 
To do a really top job you put silicon sealant on the cable end then heat shrink over the top so the sealant gets squashed in to all the little spaces water would get then sets protecting the cable from any further ingress

Or you could get adhesive lined heatshrink which is specifically designed for the purpose, and significantly less messy.

Also, normal silicone (not silicon, silicon makes a terrible sealant) sealants available are acetoxy curing, which will actually attack the copper.
 
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Or you could get adhesive lined heatshrink which is specifically designed for BLAH BLAH BLAH


Seriously Monkeh every time you pipe up is only on electronics subjects and as an ex-electronics engineer for Fluke UK I don't just know what I'm doing, I practically wrote the book.

Adhesive heat shrink is not suitable for the application, I it seems you have assumed I meant bathroom sealant when I said 'silicon'

For future reference, don't question what I'm doing when it comes to electronics and engineering, even if you think it's wrong I will have considered things you've not even thought of
 
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Seriously Monkeh every time you pipe up is only on electronics subjects and as an ex-electronics engineer for Fluke UK I don't just know what I'm doing, I practically wrote the book.

I'm sorry, it's apparently rude to talk about a subject I know. I am not a mechanic. I'll stick to running my mouth like flisko if you insist, though.

Adhesive heat shrink is not suitable for the application, I it seems you have assumed I meant bathroom sealant when I said 'silicon'
Adhesive heatshrink isn't suitable for sealing a cable termination against the elements? Last I checked that's what it's for. Of course, if you know better, please link me to your book or simply explain here.

And yes, I assumed bathroom sealant, like any other random user would, seeing as you didn't specify. So I clarified that normal sealant is not suitable.

For future reference, don't question what I'm doing when it comes to electronics and engineering, even if you think it's wrong I will have considered things you've not even thought of
Oh, get over yourself, please. That's really not necessary or a good attitude to have. I did not come here criticising you, I came here with my own advice and a little clarification. You clearly seem determined to take it as a personal attack and an opportunity to assert your superiority. What crawled up you this morning?
 
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For future reference, don't question what I'm doing when it comes to electronics and engineering, even if you think it's wrong I will have considered things you've not even thought of

You don't like being questioned Andy but you feel you can throw out a detrimental comment about my business without reason ?
 
I'm sorry, it's apparently rude to talk about a subject I know.

Adhesive heatshrink isn't suitable for sealing a cable termination against the elements? Last I checked that's what it's for. Of course, if you know better, or simply explain here.

And yes, I assumed bathroom sealant, like any other random user would, seeing as you didn't specify. So I clarified that normal sealant is not suitable.

Oh, get over yourself, please. That's really not necessary or a good attitude to have. I did not come here criticising you, I came here with my own advice and a little clarification. You clearly seem determined to take it as a personal attack and an opportunity to assert your superiority.


A few points to address I can't be bothered to multi quote you but here goes.

You might know some bits about electronics, but there is more to electronics than wire A connects to pin B, and as this is a single wire and a connector this is all about the engineering principals, so heat management, stress loading, environment etc.

This part is connected to a hot gearbox, in a forward facing plain exposed to sudden changes in temperature, huge amounts of moisture and exposure to chemicals including battery acid and diesel from directly above. Under these extremes it's likely the adhesive in any adhesive heat shrink would fracture and fail within a few days. So the object of the exercise is to displace any moisture or chemicals which will degrade the materials we're trying to protect. So I have an insulated copper cable, and a nickel plated ring connector, fiat decided to just crimp one on the other and that's why it keeps failing. So I have a suitable silicon which will when heated in the heat shrink displace any moisture and seal all the surfaces it contacts from the elements. Is resistant to petrochemicals and acids and can handle heat shock from +250degreesC down to -50degreesC that should be more than enough so it will coat and protect the copper fill any air spaces in the joint and act as an adhesive between the insulation of the cable and the heat shrink I am going to use. It is also more flexible than the glue used in heat shrink and not limited to a very thin coating.

This is a pretty common technique used to protect components that might come into contact with liquid chemicals and moisture. And is often used to protect Hall effect chips in clamp meters.

I can see that any non electronics person might assume I meant something like bathroom sealant, but you (I assume) knew other such sealants existed but rather than ask me what I was doing/using you gave me a lecture on why I couldn't use 'Normal silicon' not that in this application it would be a major issue, in essence the tiny amount of acetic acid produced during the cure isn't going to do much harm to a large single core cable and will not do any lasting damage.

Finally as for "I came here with my own advice and a little clarification." I didn't ask for advice or clarification, though I appreciate this is a forum and on forums people do, do that but as you only ever turn up to preach on electronics subjects and often to "assert" your superiority in such matters, I took it that that was your intention this time, and to be perfectly honest I don't need it, much like a mechanic doesn't need me telling them how to change a wheel and might react similarly.




Take it the 2nd cable is one of the Halfords premade ones?

I'd like to avoid been near plastic, would the terminal fit on the body side of the engine mount?

Ziggy


The second cable was an off the shelf pre made solenoid cable from the small car parts store in town, it was fitted very quickly in the cold so may at some point go under the washer bottle with suitable washer but I bought a much better cable from the auto-electrical specialists I visited later on in Norwich
 
I was not criticising, attacking, or advising you. Other people read this forum, and may not realise you had something specific in mind, not a generic bathroom sealant. I apologise for not making this clearer.

However frankly, I find your attitude that I so obviously know 'some bits' offensive. No, I am not a time served engineer, that does not give you the right to talk down to me and assume I know nothing of value.

ps. you're absolutely right, I forgot about the environmental issues down on the bottom of the engine/gearbox. Happy?
 
Andy,

I do not think you should be referring to 'suitable silicon' for use in electronics or talking about 'normal silicon' for use in bathrooms

//www.threebond.co.uk/Products/ThreeBondAdhesivesPottingAgents/SiliconeElectronicUse/tabid/218/language/en-GB/Default.aspx
 
thanks, :)
I know little about this kind of thing...,
but - in my dirt bike racing past it was considered BAD practice to use "Silicone sealant" around ignition parts, as it drew moisture IN..,

last thing you needed:bang:

just reminded me of a German bike where the ign coil was designed/ mounted where SNOW sat on top, got HOT , then oozed inside:yuck:

"German quality,",:rolleyes:


Charlie
 
Ok so update since I last posted the cable had completely broken

ImageUploadedByFIAT Forum1419788304.212857.jpg

You can see it's pretty corroded.

ImageUploadedByFIAT Forum1419788365.390783.jpg

Lined up it will lose about half an inch, which will hopefully just be enough to reach somewhere on the gearbox.

ImageUploadedByFIAT Forum1419789081.785935.jpg

Stripped, the core is corroded quite a way up but I have a very easy/dangerous way to clean this (which I'm not going to explain because I don't want anyone copying me and hurting themself)

ImageUploadedByFIAT Forum1419789196.878366.jpg
Cleaned up its ready for a new ring connector

ImageUploadedByFIAT Forum1419789242.088320.jpg
A perfect fit, I don't have a crimping tool this size so I nip the end with a pair of grips the punch with a screw driver to clamp the cable

ImageUploadedByFIAT Forum1419789489.630753.jpg
A bead of electrical silicon was placed around the join, then another bead was made further up the insulation and another on the neck of the ring connector

ImageUploadedByFIAT Forum1419789579.152248.jpg
Finally the heat shrink

Hopefully this will do the job without failing again however it remains to be seen if I'll still have the car in another 5 years but at least I shouldn't have to worry about it again
 
No issues at all with the length and I noticed there was an identical mounting hole tapped into the gearbox casing higher up the box so it could actually afford to be shortened by another 2-3 inches without issue.

The original lead has 3 mounting points, the battery the body and the gearbox, I've also added a second large earth from from the gearbox to the battery.

This should definitely never be an issue ever again
 
HELP!!!
Ok I’ve read the threads above, as I have just bought a Fiat 500 multi jet diesel 2007, with this issue! So frustrating! Just bought a battery, no luck. The earth cable from battery to chassis looks new, terminals to battery I cleaned up. Still no luck.
No idea about the OEM strap, what is meant by that? I’m really annoyed as I love my car and only had her 2 weeks, haven’t used it for over a week!!
 
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