Car Room 101

[StevenRB45]

The pin up cars of my youth are hypercars of today and by putting them in 101 I would be robbing this generation of aspiration.

Finally a decent argument to my point.

Warm and hot hatches; I'll have to disagree with you. There's nothing like a good Jekyll and Hyde car that you can drive as smooth as a hearse or like you're on a tarmac rally stage.

But like Hypercars and the biggest issue I have with those; the hot hatch has become yet another victim of Top Trumping. Renault came out with the Clio 172 (hp) in the name so the 206 GTi became the 180 then a year later the Clio became the 182 and so on throughout the market. With no thought toward the chassis and other improvements that would be needed manufacturers kept putting more and more powerful engines in their cars. We have ended up with cars that are barely drivable let alone fun on the road. Things like the Volvo powered Focus ST and the Vauxhall VXR range have taken the dare I say it humble hot hatch and turned into the car the Daily Mail wrote in fear about in the 90's.

I have given serious consideration to putting my 16V Coupe turbo engine into my Bravo HLX and making basically a Fiat badged Lancia Delta HPE but the biggest thing stopping me is how stupid hot hatches are if they have more power than the chassis can handle.

Besides apart from a few minor issues and potential improvements (on the pipeline) my Bravo is pretty much perfect as she is. Certainly does everything I'll ever need a road car to do.

So how about warm and hot hatches stay and Tabasco powered ones can go? Put a 200bhp cap on it perhaps.

In my opinion there is no difference between the hypercars of now or the past, it's just the level of technology that's moved on

You could put together an argument that's the same with hot hatches they've got better with technology. The difference in my opinion is that supercars/hypercars were always about being far more than you could use but majoring on the theatre. I suspect we are on the same side of the fence regards hatches. Hot hatches were about being a usable fun car, if your 4wd automatic turbo hatch can go 0 to instaban in 7 seconds without any skill then what is the point? You spend most of the time pootling about watching the speedo which isn't fun. At anything except ridiculous speeds the huge wheels tyres and brakes fitted as standard renders the car inert. Not to say they aren't hugely capable and very impressive it's just the rather appear to have lost their way.

Then again when reading an article on PH about the Ford Sierra cosworth RS500 which mentioned the brake and tyre sizes and they looked familiar. I realised at that point my 1.6 petrol hatch shares its 205/50 tyre size..but that the wheel and brake diameter on the 1.6 petrol is bigger than the homologation special Ford. Obviously the fast hatch cannot have the same size wheels tyres as the slow one and so it goes on.

 

[Liquid Knight]

Technology doesn't make cars better. If anything it's the opposite. As I have said before it is more fun driving my Panda down a B road at the speed limit than a modern car at double.

The Top Trumping power race has made the hot hatch practically useless in the real world. Like you say brakes that only work properly when they're warmed up, tyres that only stick to bone dry dimple free tarmac, suspension that has put dentists out of business and seats that have made chiropractors millionaires.

Sure you want all that if you're doing a track day but it is simply stupid on the way to the shops.

This...

...is what happened to an Astra VXR wheel with a nearly new tyre after the owner hit a small pot hole on the M25 yesterday. Dare I suggest hundreds maybe thousands of other vehicles hit the same hole with no issue but because the Astra's silly wheels and painted on tyres resulted in carnage.

No spare either, to save weight so it had to be recovered and taken to the nearest Vauxhall dealer where a new wheel and tyre was £450 (plus the recovery fees).

When you consider for the price of a Tabasco hatch you can get decent second hand BMW M3 or Audi RS4 that does the road and track stuff without being crap at one or the other. Better still for similar money you can get a Se7en for the track and something mundane for the school run.

To a degree every car is a compromise. I'm driving my Bravo and not my Panda because my nephews are too tall to get in the back and I occasionally need load space so I use my Bravo instead of my Alfa Spider.

Is the amount of hassle that comes with a Tabasco hatch worth those few moments you get on track?

Crap! Just blew my whole argument out of the water there. Of course it is.

 

[StevenRB45]

Technology doesn't make cars better. If anything it's the opposite. As I have said before it is more fun driving my Panda down a B road at the speed limit than a modern car at double.

Snipped due to hugeness

Crap! Just blew my whole argument out of the water there. Of course it is.

I would say that was never the point of the hot hatch it was a fun every day car not a truculent beast to only be used on high days holidays and track days.

As a result it could happily disappear into room 101 as the good track day hatches are too extreme to use everyday and the good everyday cars are too dull to qualify as fun. So the extreme ones could be replaced by proper track day cars and the workaday ones are no different from your normal none hot hatches but with everything turned up to 11.

 

[Noxide]

Point less wraps on perfectly designed vehicles
Artic camo in Chelsea. Very useful ( just to stop the neighbours kids scratching to paint job on the smart car!!!) ha

Haha you wouldn't love my urban camo wrap on my Fiat roof then.

 

[AndyRKett]

Haha you wouldn't love my urban camo wrap on my Fiat roof then.

It will never be as bad as velvet wrap.

 

[Noxide]

It will never be as bad as velvet wrap.

Didn't there used to be a velvet/furry Ferrari in London or something obscene? The thought of it actually makes my skin crawl.

 

[puntofan01]

I would say that was never the point of the hot hatch it was a fun every day car not a truculent beast to only be used on high days holidays and track days.

As a result it could happily disappear into room 101 as the good track day hatches are too extreme to use everyday and the good everyday cars are too dull to qualify as fun. So the extreme ones could be replaced by proper track day cars and the workaday ones are no different from your normal none hot hatches but with everything turned up to 11.

I know this is probably an opinion shared by very few people, but you don't even need to go that fast to have fun. I remember my 796cc Daewoo Matiz being a fun little thing to buzz around in, my old mk2b was fun, and my Grande is a great car to drive. I even managed to extract some legal fun out of a diseasal engined Vito van back in 2013! Only 1 of those vehicles has a top speed in triple figures, and even then, only just, but that doesn't matter.

 

[AndyRKett]

Didn't there used to be a velvet/furry Ferrari in London or something obscene? The thought of it actually makes my skin crawl.

I think it was this phantom drophead that was doing the rounds a couple of years back.

 

[Noxide]

I know this is probably an opinion shared by very few people, but you don't even need to go that fast to have fun.

+1 on this. Not least because my 500 won't go above 75 unless you push it off a cliff.

I think it was this phantom drophead that was doing the rounds a couple of years back.

View attachment 175773

View attachment 175774

Oh my giddy aunt that's horrendous, far worse than what I was thinking of!

While on the subject of wraps - I hate chrome ones!

 

[StevenRB45]

I know this is probably an opinion shared by very few people, but you don't even need to go that fast to have fun. I remember my 796cc Daewoo Matiz being a fun little thing to buzz around in, my old mk2b was fun, and my Grande is a great car to drive. I even managed to extract some legal fun out of a diseasal engined Vito van back in 2013! Only 1 of those vehicles has a top speed in triple figures, and even then, only just, but that doesn't matter.

There is a certain fun to be had goading something that doesn't want to go fast into going fast or at least attempting to. Driving a fast car fast is fun as well...it's just very hard to do so safely and legally.

I find that but as I've got older/have a wife to think about my risk tolerance is much lower if I still had my mk1 I'd probably travel much slower than I do now. I have the same commute I travel at the same speed as I used to pretty much the difference being I had no margin for error back in 2003ish. It was fun at the time but I was a lucky boy many times to say the least.

 

[puntofan01]

I don't know what it is really. Obviously the only car I have access to is my old Fiat, but I just enjoy the experience of driving it tbh.

 

[AndyRKett]

Oh my giddy aunt that's horrendous, far worse than what I was thinking of!

While on the subject of wraps - I hate chrome ones!

The weirdest thing about those pictures is they look like someone has photoshopped the cars a different colour, badly.

You'd probably think they had been chopped if you didn't know it was a wrap.

I've driven lots of slow but fun cars over the years, however the most fun I've had driving was in an lotus Elise, and it was going very quick Down very twisty roads within the limits of the law.

The sort of fun that comes with slow cars is that they reach the limits of grip much earlier so it feels like you are on the edge all the time, that fun soon wears off when you get overtaken by a rep in a 3 series

 

[Noxide]

The weirdest thing about those pictures is they look like someone has photoshopped the cars a different colour, badly.

Haha I know, it's actually quite disconcerting. I saw one in real life once and my eyes just couldn't quite fathom it!

Also I'm sorry, but it destroys the nice lines/details/curves on a car like that!

The sort of fun that comes with slow cars is that they reach the limits of grip much earlier so it feels like you are on the edge all the time, that fun soon wears off when you get overtaken by a rep in a 3 series

My uncle reps and drives an Astra. Can confirm this is the case.

 

[SB1500]

All German cars should be reserved spots in Room 101..

BUT.. If you can only take one then take the washing machine. You know which one (or 3 rather) I mean [emoji6]

All Italian cars should be exempt, on basis of their character, quirks and ability to thrill even with well under 100hp!

 

[AndyRKett]

All Italian cars should be exempt, on basis of their character, quirks and ability to thrill even with well under 100hp!

In translating this from automotive journalist speak, what you basically mean is :-

Character/quirks = rattled bangs and does things you woundn't expect the car to do.

Thill with under 100hp = lacks power but makes it fell fun and on the edge with woolly handling and thin non grippy tyres.

 

[Noxide]

Yeah - character for me is the nagging feeling something is wrong, but I'm not sure what, or the fact every male friend calls me a hairdresser or similar. Quirks are the occasional (as yet reason undiscovered) engine warning lights that come on if you dare to travel at 65/70 for any prolonged period of time, then go off on a restart of the engine.

Thrill of 100hp, in my case 69 (lol mature), is having very wide tyres which are nice and sticky so the car dutifully follows road camber instead, and dodging potholes like a mad man because heaven help I dent an alloy. Street cred though.


Genuinely love my car to pieces though, and I do feel like it does have a bit more... soul. than other cars! Yes for Italian cars.

 

[SB1500]

Guys, Take the 'German Engineering' argument, and shove it up your a***

(not meant to sound quite as aggressive as it was written btw, still friends! )

BUT.
I saw you all slagging Dacia earlier in this thread, so explain this...
Two relatives of mine.

One has a 2010 Seat Leon 2.0 TDI...
One has a Sandero 1.5 diesel of some sort...

The Leon can't even be accelerated without black suite flying out the back of it... It also WILL NOT GO OVER 30MPH... It's a 6 year old bloody car. DPF I suspect. He showed us it in front of our own eyes. Foot to the floor, and my bloody Panda can surpass it.. The car simply will NOT go past 30.

The Sandero? Perfectly fine. No doubt HALF the cost.

So don't sit there and pretend that German Cars are better than Fiat or any other. Better finished and faster, sure - if you pay for it you get it. But more mechanically sound or perfectly designed?

No bloody way. The TDI engine, as long lasting as it can be and with its incredible pull.. has so damn bloody unacceptable problems. The DPF doesn't help, but even on TDI's without DPF, the black reek coming off the back should be unacceptable.

VW should be paying compensation to people who've had to drive behind one of their bloody cars...Never mind the lies.

As for the SEAT, we tried plugging it into VAG-COM but surprise surprise.. VW has blocked access for it that model somehow... funny that.

 

[SB1500]

In defence of my own Panda..

It doesn't rattle or knock! It handles how it should, albeit like any Italian car rough around the edges by luxury standards, but as many on here well know - bloody good fun.

The only sort of knocks I've ever had was caused by worn drop links, not uncommon on a 10 year old car of any sort!

Running a LOT better than some more expensive cars the same age or a few years newer where I live!

Sure, I've invested in it, but only very few of those things were things that shouldn't go. e.g. Wiper motor, fair enough, not everybody will replace those on their car.
Radiator?
Shocks?
Everyone will eventually need to replace those.
The only difference being, when the time does come with a little Fiat, you pay the same for your part as they do for the labour

 

[puntofan01]

All German cars should be reserved spots in Room 101..

I'd go with that, lol!

 

[AndyRKett]

BUT.

I saw you all slagging Dacia earlier in this thread, so explain this...

Two relatives of mine.



One has a 2010 Seat Leon 2.0 TDI...

One has a Sandero 1.5 diesel of some sort...



The Leon can't even be accelerated without black suite flying out the back of it... It also WILL NOT GO OVER 30MPH... It's a 6 year old bloody car. DPF I suspect. He showed us it in front of our own eyes. Foot to the floor, and my bloody Panda can surpass it.. The car simply will NOT go past 30.



The Sandero? Perfectly fine. No doubt HALF the cost.

So a car with a knackered DPF is better than a car with a working DPF mean while the car manufacturers buy these parts in so in can be the same basic part from one car to another.

On the flip side GPF (gasoline particular filters) are arriving this year as the DPF generally do a good job mean while petrol cars are now spitting more particular matter than modern diesels Nox readings are higher on diesels but Co2 is higher on petrols it's all very much swings and roundabouts.

Overall though you can't really compare a broken car to a working car and claim that's the general rule my 2.0tdi defiantly goes above 30mph where as this Sandero is so badly built it couldn't handle being crashed !!