Technical Brake disc, a ring of rust

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Technical Brake disc, a ring of rust

Tipotwo

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The first annual service for my Tipo, which I had done by Fiat, involved taking a ring of rust off the brake disc. It is most obvious on the rear brake disc. It just looks like the pad is much smaller than the disc, so some of the disc is not swept and it rusts. The next one was done by a local dealer who did not bother and I did not ask.

I now have an advisory on my MOT for rust on the brake disc. When I got Fiat to take the rust off, it was back again within months, so it seems pointless. Am I doomed to constant advisories, or could this end up a fail?

What to do?
 
The first annual service for my Tipo, which I had done by Fiat, involved taking a ring of rust off the brake disc. It is most obvious on the rear brake disc. It just looks like the pad is much smaller than the disc, so some of the disc is not swept and it rusts. The next one was done by a local dealer who did not bother and I did not ask.

I now have an advisory on my MOT for rust on the brake disc. When I got Fiat to take the rust off, it was back again within months, so it seems pointless. Am I doomed to constant advisories, or could this end up a fail?

What to do?
This can be more noticeable in areas where more road salt is used and as you say smaller pad than disc contact diameter, resulting in rust forming on the outer edge.
It only becomes a problem if the surface rust isn't cleaned off as it gradually pushes it's way onto the pad contact area reducing the brake efficiency as the brake pad needs a clean smooth surface for maximum efficiency.
 
The first annual service for my Tipo, which I had done by Fiat, involved taking a ring of rust off the brake disc. It is most obvious on the rear brake disc. It just looks like the pad is much smaller than the disc, so some of the disc is not swept and it rusts. The next one was done by a local dealer who did not bother and I did not ask.

I now have an advisory on my MOT for rust on the brake disc. When I got Fiat to take the rust off, it was back again within months, so it seems pointless. Am I doomed to constant advisories, or could this end up a fail?

What to do?
That doesn’t seem right? My car is 4 years old no rust on discs apart on outer edges which happens to most cars. Sounds like pads are wrong?not fitted properly? 8
 
Could you post a picture? The "problem" is that disc surfaces are completely exposed to the atmosphere so will rust. The surfaces swept by the pad friction faces are the important bits. within reason rust on surfaces not swept by the pad are irrelevant - as long as not corroded to serious excess which would weaken the disc structure.

In everyday use the exposed surface of the disc rotor where the pads rub will probably show some evidence of light rusting after a night standing out in the rain. Here's a picture of a front disc on my Ibiza after standing for just over one day out in the rain on the hard standing outside my garage:

P1100659.JPG


and here's one of a rear disc:

P1100661.JPG


You can see the very light rusty spots on the face of the disc but this will be removed by the pads after the first or second application of the brakes as you drive away, thus leaving a bright shiny surface. You can also see the much more heavily rusted, narrow band on the outside and inside of the face of the disc where the pads don't rub. This is absolutely normal after some time in use. In fact these discs and pads have now done nearly 28,000 miles and are still in excellent order easily producing an MOT pass figure and attracting no advisories.

By way of contrast here's the discs from my older boy's Punto:

P1100662.JPG


P1100663.JPG


The first picture shows the "front" of the disc, by which I mean the surface you will see if you look through the wheel (nice and easy with many modern alloy wheel designs) However, don't be fooled into letting this fool you into thinking all is well. The second picture is the rear face of the same disc. You'll have to get right under the car or take the wheel off to get a good view of this. You'll notice it's not in anything like as good condition as the more easily checked front face. Not only is it's surface quite deeply scoured but around the outside there is deep and crusty rust which will simply be ploughing pad material off the face of the pad so not allowing it to grip the disc. It'll only be providing stopping power where it's gripping on the smoother polished surface. This is not at all unusual in my experience so don't think you can accurately assess the condition of your brakes by simply looking through the wheel at the front side of the disc! Under these conditions you'll find the pad in contact with the rear side of the disc will wear more quickly too so you can't even accurately assess future pad life from what the outside pad is looking like!

The Fiat brakes had been on the car for about 5 years and in fact still had a reasonable depth of friction material on them:

P1100649.JPG


The car drove well and braked smoothly without pulling to one side at all. I've no doubt that it would have produced a braking performance which would have passed the test but after another year? I wouldn't be so confident. I like brakes on "the family fleet" to be as perfect as possible and Punto brake parts aren't expensive so the decision to renew was not difficult. I think a diligent tester would probably stick an advisory on the old discs if he/she looked closely enough. If you feel tempted to just stick a new set of pads in when discs look like this then i would advise against it. Not only will it take quite a number of miles for the pads to bed in - That is wear to the ridged shape of the old disc, and performance will be poor while they are doing this - but the pads will wear quite a bit more quickly too. Just not worth it. If the disc isn't A1 just do discs and pads together.

As Mike mentions above, these rust problems are worse in areas where lots of salt is used on the roads - and that's us! I like to go round the edges of my discs every year at service time with either a medium grade grinding disc or chipping hammer and get rid of the worst of the crusty rust. If you let it build up to excess it can often make rubbing/grinding noises and these can sound quite alarming although mostly it's a harmless noise.

Used to be that you could run through a couple of sets of pads to every disc in the old "asbestos pad" days. Now it's not unusual to be doing new discs every time you renew a set of pads. Oh, and of course, don't even think of doing just one side will you?
 
Regarding "advisories" I take them as exactly that, namely advising me that something might require attention. I couldn't care less when an advisory pops up on one of the MOTs as long as the vehicle gets it's pass. Worth considering too perhaps that MOT testers don't want to be caught out so will often post an advisory as an act of self defence/damage limitation in the event of something unexpectedly failing/breaking and maybe causing an accident which can have very serious consequences. I like my MOT tester to be strict but fair and rely, to some extent, on it as a second check on my work.
 
I am in the same situation

An unusual FIAT build... so parts are a bit 'thin on the ground'...

Will need a full set soon'ish but have lasted 70k and 10 years :)

My suspicion is that 'Rusty Faces' have shortened both Disc and pad life..

But have not raised any eyebrows at MOT time

Usually stated as 'Corrosion and Scoring but not affecting Structure'
20230227_165600.jpg
 
I am in the same situation

An unusual FIAT build... so parts are a bit 'thin on the ground'...

Will need a full set soon'ish but have lasted 70k and 10 years :)

My suspicion is that 'Rusty Faces' have shortened both Disc and pad life..

But have not raised any eyebrows at MOT time

Usually stated as 'Corrosion and Scoring but not affecting Structure'
View attachment 419518
Yes Charlie. Looking at the inner edge of the shiny swept area you can just see that maybe half a mil, maybe less, of thickness has been worn away but the disc face looks in very good order and your pads look pretty well as new? As I mentioned above, you can see the "crusty bits" on the outer diameter which I like to chip/grind away to ensure there are no rubbing noises over time as the rust builds up. If the inner faces look the same as this I'd be very content to run with it as it is. Oh boy do I hate those anti rattle springs. They always seem to fight me to the very end when reinstalling!
 
Lack of millage is probably what does the discs in on something like a 500
I bet most of them only do 3-4 k a year


As for the op is it the rears discs you are on about?

If so the pads are quite a bit smaller then the discs.

Definitely worth fitting coated discs when you replace the pads next stop a lot of surface rustil try and get some pics in the morning of mine
 
Definitely worth fitting coated discs when you replace the pads next stop a lot of surface rustil try and get some pics in the morning of mine
Yes, I agree that coated discs are a nice thing to have. Of course they make no difference to the braking performance and the coating is very quickly rubbed off of the friction surfaces by the pads, but the protection the coating offers to the rest of the rotor is well worth having and I think it reduces the tendency for rust to "creep" in onto the edges of the friction faces? Also reduces the tendency for the disc to rust to the hub so makes removal in the future easier - Looks nicer too especially if your alloys are a very open design so making the disc rotor very visible (although it'll only be "nerds" like us who appreciate that aspect?) Given the choice and if there is little price difference, I would go with coated disc but, in reality, it's usually just what the factor has on his shelf - The ones I recently did on the Punto aren't coated and I'm not loosing any sleep over it!
 
Both front and rear brakes appear to be from higher models up the fiat/alfa food chain so IMO have been made ”worse” to not steal high models caché. The front callipers look to have smaller brackets so they take smaller discs and a compromise for pads using less of the disc than they could do (resulting in the rust issue) and the rear is also made to take a smaller pad than it could so around 1cm of disc surface on the inside isn’t used. They’re still perfectly serviceable, but engineered to be not as good as they could be. Very much like several aspects of the tipo. Serviceable but made just a bit worse than it could be to not steal sales from further up the food chain. Could be wrong of course, but having waved a lot of spanners at a lot of cars I’ve never fitted rear discs that purposely had swept area not used by design like these are.
 
I was told on a recent service that I've got about 6mm left on all 4 brake pads and this was flagged as amber (needing attention in the near future).
Any idea how much time/miles I'd be able to get with 6mm? My journeys are mostly motorway/A roads. Thanks
 
I was told on a recent service that I've got about 6mm left on all 4 brake pads and this was flagged as amber (needing attention in the near future).
Any idea how much time/miles I'd be able to get with 6mm? My journeys are mostly motorway/A roads. Thanks
How long is a piece of string?;) Seriously there are many variables, in an ideal World take the wheels off and have a good look, bearing in mind they don't all wear evenly. Different makes and grades of brake pad wear at different rates. Fronts tend to wear out quicker than rears. Do you have an history of getting good mileage from brake pads on other vehicles etc.
At the end of the day depending on usage I would run for a few months more then look at changing them, it will be cheaper than going to far and having to change discs as well.
 
You can aid this problem next disc replacement by getting a set of coated rotors, they are electro plated to help stop the rusting on non-swept areas, also an occasional spritz from a trigger sprayer of bilt hamber atom-mac on everything underneath stops discs going orange when left sitting etc.
 
Thank you for your thoughts. I think I'll take your advice and get a visual brake inspection in a few months and not leave it too long.
 
The brake discs in your phots actually look in good condition. I had a Bravo 1.6D with the same system or very similar. It needed to be cleaned up annually but never looked much worse than this. I used to clean the disc faces s with a flapper wheel and also flat the pads with a file if rust had gouged the areas affected by rust on discs. This restored 100% pad to disc contact with relatively little effort. The front discs and pads lasted around 65K and the rears just under 90K. I didnt thrash that car apart from when requiring it to pull my caravan but it was used for a lot of work miles. I probalt towed around 10K during my ownership.

I think the change required to asbestos free pads, and the resultant requirement for steel to match, has meant rusting has become an issue that is significant. As its not resulting MOT failures the indistry sees no need to address it yet and dont admit or accept there is a problem. I disagree but dont have any solutions either.

Coated discs reduce the issue by a very substantial amount and I shall not again be using uncoated discs. Its worth the extra cost.
 
I was told on a recent service that I've got about 6mm left on all 4 brake pads and this was flagged as amber (needing attention in the near future).
Any idea how much time/miles I'd be able to get with 6mm? My journeys are mostly motorway/A roads. Thanks
As Mike says above, it's almost impossible to guess how long a particular set of pads is going to last, just too many variables. I've tried to be "helpful" in the past when asked by a valued regular customer and then subsequently catching a big cold when they turn up on the forecourt with a "horrid grinding noise". It's worth also considering that many mechanics will recommend a pad change some time before it's strictly due in order to avoid exactly that problem. Also, with long service intervals now a days, many will recommend a pad change even though plenty of material is still present because they feel they genuinely can't be sure the pads will last another year, 18 months or two years or whatever until the car is next in the workshop.

People such as us can do an inspection whenever we like so allowing us to get a lot more life out of our friction materials. I'd caution against trying to run things too close to the bone though, personally I'd not go much below 3mm and I wouldn't be setting off on one of our trips to "the deep south" unless my pads had considerably more than that on them.

Thickness of new pads does vary a bit - I'm not really in the habit of measuring new pads so can't be specific and I wouldn't be surprised to find they vary a bit from one manufacturer's vehicle to another - ie. thickness on a Jag or Range Rover might be different to a Mini or Seat Ibiza? However I'd take a guess (Mk 1 eyeball) that, on common every day stuff, it's going to be around 1/2" (13mm) give or take. One I did recently was my older boy's Punto (see pictures above near the beginning of this trhread). I serviced it towards the end of last summer - when it was still nice and warm weather wise - and noticed the pads were low enough for me to say to him that we ought to be doing them "soon". The Punto is his daily work car doing a half hour there and half hour back journey into the city roughly 5 days a week (he does shifts) with one very steep hill of approx a mile in length which has traffic lights at the bottom so needs a hard stop at the bottom of the hill so not all that friendly for the brakes. He eventually let me have the car to do the brakes about a month ago and I doubt if it had taken more than around a mil off the pads in that time. I just measured them (they are still in my box of stuff to go to the recycling centre) and they've got about 4mm still on them and, although they would have done another month or so, I'm very happy we changed them when we did. Why? because you have to be aware that when the friction material gets very thin it doesn't deal with the heat so well and will fade more quickly under arduous conditions. It's also more likely when the friction material is thin and especially if the pads are quite old - I suppose maybe over 6 or 7 years since fitting, but difficult to be specific, let's just say "old" as in "not in the first flush of their youth" that the friction material may separate from the metal backing and give you instant metal to metal contact, which will quickly ruin the discs to say nothing of reducing braking efficiency!

So if a new pad has around 13mm (1/2") of friction material and yours were reported with 6mm still on them it's tempting to think of them as half worn? But no! If we take it that they need changed when they get to around 3mm then at 6mm they are 2/3 done, yes? so still got quite a bit of safe running in them - my boy would have gone through to next summer if his had measured 6mm at the end of last summer - so no need to "panic" immediately but a check after a month or so and compare how much has degraded in that time against how much is left will give you an indication of how long you can afford to leave them. Oh, and remember to check the pad depth on all 4 pads because wear can be uneven due to differing disc surface smoothness and stuff like siezed/partly seized caliper sliders and pistons etc. It's not all that unusual to find inner pads wearing quicker than outers so don't just look through the weel spokes at the outer pads on each side and assume the inners will be worn the same.

When I was younger it was much more of a thing to regularly check pads because if you caught it early enough all you would need would be a set of pads and it was not unusual for you to get two or even three sets of pads worn out before a disc change was needed. Today it's not all that unusual to change discs and pads as a set every time and certainly you'll be very lucky to get more than two sets of pads worn out before renewing a disc.
 
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