Biodiesel (waste veg oil)

[Stu DemonD]

Yep, I read that notice as part of my comment in post 11 re the new regs.

 

[greenmachine]

here's a couple of links to websites with more reliable info as there is a lot of old and incorrect info out there, it can take a while to understand but there is no magic behind converting waste oil into biodiesel (or fatty acid methyl ether - FAME) to give its correct name.
im not into chemistry and if i can do it, honestly anybody can.

http://utahbiodieselsupply.com/index.php
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
cheers chris

 

[SoKal]

You can use up to 2,500 litres per year without having to pay tax.

That came into effect about 3 years ago.

Spookily, the cost of SVO quadrupled within a few weeks of this becoming law........

I gave up bothering when SVO topped the price of regular dino diesel.....

 

[sludgeguts]

I reckon the problems are caused through people processing the heck out of veg oil - turning it into biodiesel.
The process seems to involve filtering out the muck but then adding sodium hydroxide - a lovely potent drain cleaner to methanol, warming the oil and adding the sodium/meth mix into the warm oil.
this splits the glycerine which is removed from the bottom.
The oil is then washed & an airstone is added to encourage the water to draw any remaining soaps out of the bio.
Now I might be wrong but glycerine & soaps all sounds a bit 'lubey' to me, so keeping these things in the mix would help the internals stay lubed up?
In any case, why mess about getting them out when they are simply burnt away in the pots?

I simply warm the oil to encourage it through a 75 micron filter. I then have a 1 micron sock filter in a spin dryer (too tight to buy a proper centrifuge) which takes out any finer muck.
I'm told a fuel filter is around 5 - 10 microns so if anything can get through 1 micron filter I don't think it can harm the engine.
Once it's gone through that, I add 3% petrol to 'thin' the oil.
There are websites saying to use thinners etc but they aren't taxed for fuel use - also, petrol is cheaper per litre than thinners/white spirit.
I have some 20litre containers which originally contained fresh engine oil - whatever was left in them also went into the mix.

My exhaust doesn't stink of chips but then again, it doesn't stink of normal diesel fumes either.
The engine runs perfectly, it is happy to sit at 70 all day with a car full of people/luggage etc & it also seems to idle better - although as the mornings get colder, the idle can be a tad lumpy - but no worse than it ever was.
As we come into autumn and the frost starts, I'll be dropping the ratio.
summer mix is 10 litres veg added to approx 35 litres diesel.
I fill up with diesel, generally 45.46 litres. I get 45mpg so drive 90 miles then add 10 litres veg.
With frosty/cold mornings I will fill up with diesel, drive 45 - 50 miles and add 5 litres veg and when we expect the coldest weather, I only add 5 litres veg every 2nd fill.
I always like to use the better quality diesels (at the moment I plump for the shell which supposedly gets you an extra litre's worth of motoring per tank - presumably down to additives?) I figure it all helps along the way.

So, basically, I've been on a blend of used veg oil for about a year and on a blend with fresh oil since July 2008. I'll only use used veg if I can get it free or considerably cheaper than fresh.
The equipment I use set me back about £50 - old spin dryer, old water urn, couple of filters.

Just an extra thought, when producing bio, a by product is glycerine - what to do with it?
Only by-product I have is scraps of food, batter etc which are OK to chuck in the bin.

 

[johnson550]

I reckon the problems are caused through people processing the heck out of veg oil - turning it into biodiesel.
The process seems to involve filtering out the muck but then adding sodium hydroxide - a lovely potent drain cleaner to methanol, warming the oil and adding the sodium/meth mix into the warm oil.
this splits the glycerine which is removed from the bottom.
The oil is then washed & an airstone is added to encourage the water to draw any remaining soaps out of the bio.
Now I might be wrong but glycerine & soaps all sounds a bit 'lubey' to me, so keeping these things in the mix would help the internals stay lubed up?
In any case, why mess about getting them out when they are simply burnt away in the pots?

I simply warm the oil to encourage it through a 75 micron filter. I then have a 1 micron sock filter in a spin dryer (too tight to buy a proper centrifuge) which takes out any finer muck.
I'm told a fuel filter is around 5 - 10 microns so if anything can get through 1 micron filter I don't think it can harm the engine.
Once it's gone through that, I add 3% petrol to 'thin' the oil.
There are websites saying to use thinners etc but they aren't taxed for fuel use - also, petrol is cheaper per litre than thinners/white spirit.
I have some 20litre containers which originally contained fresh engine oil - whatever was left in them also went into the mix.

My exhaust doesn't stink of chips but then again, it doesn't stink of normal diesel fumes either.
The engine runs perfectly, it is happy to sit at 70 all day with a car full of people/luggage etc & it also seems to idle better - although as the mornings get colder, the idle can be a tad lumpy - but no worse than it ever was.
As we come into autumn and the frost starts, I'll be dropping the ratio.
summer mix is 10 litres veg added to approx 35 litres diesel.
I fill up with diesel, generally 45.46 litres. I get 45mpg so drive 90 miles then add 10 litres veg.
With frosty/cold mornings I will fill up with diesel, drive 45 - 50 miles and add 5 litres veg and when we expect the coldest weather, I only add 5 litres veg every 2nd fill.
I always like to use the better quality diesels (at the moment I plump for the shell which supposedly gets you an extra litre's worth of motoring per tank - presumably down to additives?) I figure it all helps along the way.

So, basically, I've been on a blend of used veg oil for about a year and on a blend with fresh oil since July 2008. I'll only use used veg if I can get it free or considerably cheaper than fresh.
The equipment I use set me back about £50 - old spin dryer, old water urn, couple of filters.

Just an extra thought, when producing bio, a by product is glycerine - what to do with it?
Only by-product I have is scraps of food, batter etc which are OK to chuck in the bin.

I would just not like to be your engine, something will clog eventually.(just my opinion)

 

[sludgeguts]

I would just not like to be your engine, something will clog eventually.(just my opinion)

I've been blending veg oil since July 2008, I'm averaging 10k miles per year so I've covered at least 23k miles without so much as a hiccup.
Remember, I filter the oil through 1 micron - which is far smaller than the 5 or 10 micron diesel filters.
Now that the colder weather is coming my ratio is 1 gallon veg to 9 of diesel (and the veg has 3% petrol added to thin it), it all gets sloshed around & thouroughly mixed in the fuel tank, all delivered through jets at high pressure so I can't see what's to clog.
When we get a promise of more constant freezing temps I will only add 1 gallon veg to every second tankful of diesel.

When the oil is left undisturbed for a couple of months, there is a white, fatty sediment forms but I don't add this to the tank, I simply pour the oil off the top but it's not in my tank long enough for this to happen.

 

[Shadeyman]

I don't put Biodiesel made from used oil in my car. :yuck: :nono:

I'm running 100% Biodiesel made from new/unused rapeseed oil. If the weather here in the UK drops to around -5 C then its time to use a 50-50 mix as the CFPP of rapeseed methyl ester biodiesel(B100) is around -12 C.

 

[greenmachine]

Now I might be wrong but glycerine & soaps all sounds a bit 'lubey' to me, so keeping these things in the mix would help the internals stay lubed up?
In any case, why mess about getting them out when they are simply burnt away in the pots?

Just an extra thought, when producing bio, a by product is glycerine - what to do with it?
Only by-product I have is scraps of food, batter etc which are OK to chuck in the bin.

the promlem with glycerine is it polomerises (proberly spelt wrong) - turns to plastic under the conditions (pressure & tempreture) in the combustion chamber and are not just burnt away, thats why you need to process the oil, done correctly and you also remove any nasty drain cleaner you have used.


i use potassium so have two choices on how to get rid of the waste, some i put on my compost heap and the rest i take to the local tip, they have a collection point for cooking oil which gets processed and they sell the glyicerine to a company that makes soap, so dont mind me desposing of it there.

 

[fronteratech]

biodiesel waste veg oil can kill pumps on diesel engines a full list of what works and does not is here http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/vegetable.asp

Some conversions need a heater and change over valve from Bio to normal diesel.

I have known some problems with leaking pumps

Tanks clooged with what looked to come off my george forman grill

VP44 pumps packing up

seals going in other pumps

Check the diesel specialist sites the are full of horror stories on running veg

Also most diesel fuels contain some bio diesel especially tesco diesel

 

[Shadeyman]

Check the diesel specialist sites the are full of horror stories on running veg

Also most diesel fuels contain some bio diesel especially tesco diesel

The horror stories you mention are all because of USED vegetable oil being used to produce Biodiesel. Its the impurities contained in used oil that causes the problems when the oil hasn't been processed properly.
Simple solution, use only NEW/UNUSED oil for producing Biodiesel.

 

[fronteratech]

The horror stories you mention are all because of USED vegetable oil being used to produce Biodiesel. Its the impurities contained in used oil that causes the problems when the oil hasn't been processed properly.
Simple solution, use only NEW/UNUSED oil for producing Biodiesel.

using new defeats the object of recycling as it takes energy to produce it

to be honsest with the fine tolerances and lubrication requirements on new diesel pumps post 1997 the gains in using bio do not outweigh the cost of maintainance

cost of set of modified injectors pump seals and additional lubricant

also additional filters heaters etc all add to cost

if you add additional veg tank and changeover system adds to weigh of vehicle so cuts down the mpg

based on usage of bio at 75 pence per litre and derv at £1.20 over a thousand miles at 33mpg

is £62 saving minus set up costs and additional servicing its not that cost effective

so based on 10,000 its £620 quid

so add cost of tank material and duty your not saving

 

[Shadeyman]

using new defeats the object of recycling as it takes energy to produce it

to be honsest with the fine tolerances and lubrication requirements on new diesel pumps post 1997 the gains in using bio do not outweigh the cost of maintainance

cost of set of modified injectors pump seals and additional lubricant

also additional filters heaters etc all add to cost

if you add additional veg tank and changeover system adds to weigh of vehicle so cuts down the mpg

based on usage of bio at 75 pence per litre and derv at £1.20 over a thousand miles at 33mpg

is £62 saving minus set up costs and additional servicing its not that cost effective

so based on 10,000 its £620 quid

so add cost of tank material and duty your not saving

Forget recycling, Biodiesel is an alternative fuel.
It can be made from NEW or recycled oil. I do not, and would not recomend the use of recycled/used oil in a modern diesel car. :shakehead:

I'm not sure where you got your info but it only relates to cars run on unprocessed Veg Oil or Used Veg Oil.
A car run on Biodiesel made from new/unsused Rapeseed oil does not require any of the modifications you listed. Biodiesel made from Rapeseed oil is an ideal substitute for DinoDiesel and can be used all year round here in the UK. A car runing on 100% Rapeseed Biodiesel is 100% Carbon Neutral. The links in my signature are worth reading.

"Professionally manufactured biodiesel is monitored by Customs and Excise as well as the Environment Agency. It conforms to DIN 51606 and EN 14214 and so is guaranteed to be effective in any diesel engine without modification"

 

[fronteratech]

Forget recycling, Biodiesel is an alternative fuel.
It can be made from NEW or recycled oil. I do not, and would not recomend the use of recycled/used oil in a modern diesel car. :shakehead:

I'm not sure where you got your info but it only relates to cars run on unprocessed Veg Oil or Used Veg Oil.
A car run on Biodiesel made from new/unsused Rapeseed oil does not require any of the modifications you listed. Biodiesel made from Rapeseed oil is an ideal substitute for DinoDiesel and can be used all year round here in the UK. A car runing on 100% Rapeseed Biodiesel is 100% Carbon Neutral. The links in my signature are worth reading.

"Professionally manufactured biodiesel is monitored by Customs and Excise as well as the Environment Agency. It conforms to DIN 51606 and EN 14214 and so is guaranteed to be effective in any diesel engine without modification"

Did you see my link earlier to diesel bob tuning on running on bio if you read the info on that site not all cars will run on it effectively

You have to remember fuel systems are designed for diesel with it lubrication properties to keep the pump running if you take these out as in biodiesel you do not lubricate the pump and it seizes up

I question your sig on any diesel engine

here is the true picture

yellow stars for if possible
http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/vegetable.asp

by encoraging biodiese it costs more for the owner and enviroment as energy used to modify make and tow vehicles that are not capable of using it

I run a forum myself and havev known effects of using biodiesel even m own vehicle has a VP44 pump and does not even like tescos diesel with a percentage in it

 

[ChrisUK]

Nothing wrong with using USED Vegi as long as its processed correctly.

Only Advice I'd give using Biodiesel,VGO, WVGO is buy a fuel filter when you start using it as it does a very good job at cleaning your fuel system and blocking your fuel filter full of s***.

Remember the 24hr Britcar endurance race on TopGear using a BMW 330D all their problems minus the clutch were caused by running VGO and not being prepared (i.e changing fuel filter, rotted seals etc etc)

 

[fronteratech]

Nothing wrong with using USED Vegi as long as its processed correctly.

Only Advice I'd give using Biodiesel,VGO, WVGO is buy a fuel filter when you start using it as it does a very good job at cleaning your fuel system and blocking your fuel filter full of s***.

Remember the 24hr Britcar endurance race on TopGear using a BMW 330D all their problems minus the clutch were caused by running VGO and not being prepared (i.e changing fuel filter, rotted seals etc etc)

agree with you all i am trying to put across not all cars can run on it without modification

same applies to biodiesel so the statement

Professionally manufactured biodiesel is monitored by Customs and Excise as well as the Environment Agency. It conforms to DIN 51606 and EN 14214 and so is guaranteed to be effective in any diesel engine without modification"

is incorrect and dangerous to people without research into the vehicle fuel system

 

[fronteratech]

just to sum up if you have a multijet

From Diesel bob Site
http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/vegetable.asp

COMMON RAIL SYSTEMS
(BOSCH/DELPHI/SIEMENS/DENSO/ZEXEL)

No Stars


NOTES:
THE ULTRA FINE TOLERANCES WITHIN THE HIGH PRESSURE PUMP AND THE INJECTORS MAKE THIS SYSTEM HIGHLY UNSUITABLE FOR USE WITH ANYTHING OTHER THAN 100% CLEAN DIESEL.
VERY COSTLY TO RECTIFY IF THE WORST SHOULD HAPPEN.

if you have earlier lucas system

From Diesel bob Site
http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/vegetable.asp

ROTODIESEL/LUCS/DELPHI/DPC/DPCN

No Stars


NOTES:
VERY WEAK PUMP AT BEST OF TIMES, SENSITIVE TO THE SLIGHTEST CONTAMINATION AND FUEL VISCOSITY, CANNOT BE MODIFIED

more info here
http://www.dieselbob.co.uk/vegetable.asp

Your vehicle may run on biodiesel or waste oil but the longevity of the fuel system components may be impaired in addition modification or extra servicing is required

If lower cetane level may impair performance

 

[fronteratech]

In addition not including set up Cost or extra servicing

JTD multi Jet Filter £60 every 3000 miles on bio so £180 to add

And £60 to add if diesel

Plus labour etc

Cost of Product

Veg Oil 0.75
Diesel​

1.2​

Duty per litre cooking oil​

0.2​

Duty paid Diesel 0.0​

Cost Per Gallon Cooking Oil 4.3187
Cost Per Gallon Diesel5.4552​

Cost of Refining Equipment Cooking oil 600​

Cost of Chemicals for 1000 miles based on 33MPG 28.98​

Cost Per 1000 miles Cooking Oil159.8
Cost Per 1000 miles 165.3​

Cost of heating Veg oil Per litre 0.03
Cost of heating Diesel None​

Cost of Heating 137 litres of Cooking oil 4.11
Cost of Heating Diesel none​

Total Cooking oil 163.94
Diesel 165.3​

cheaper but just think of all the hassle​

 

[Shadeyman]

Hey fronteratech.

Think you need to do a little more research. A good start would be to get your head from up diesel bobs arse. His name is diesel bob not Diesel GOD.

The government already has you using 5% biodiesel evey time you fill up. Will be atleast 10% by 2020.

FACTS!
Professionally manufactured biodiesel is monitored by Customs and Excise as well as the Environment Agency. It conforms to DIN 51606 and EN 14214 and so is guaranteed to be effective in any diesel engine without modification"

• Sustainable production
• Better lubricity resulting in longer life for diesel engines
• Significantly kinder to the environment
• Improved fuel economy - up 8%
• Much lower fuel duty - around 20 pence per litre cheaper than fossil diesel

(your link to the little yellow stars proves this)

Recommending 100% Biodiesel thats proffessionally manufactured to goverment spec is niether incorrect or dangerous but listening to your rantings may well be. :nutter:

 

[fronteratech]

Thread title biodiesel (waste veg oil)

just gave you some information that is in the public domain

running on waste veg oil and home manufacturing not everyone has the same quality

a friend had a vehicle running on it and it choked the tank and all the fuel system.

I helped clean it out smelled of chip fat and scrapped it out with a spatula

it cost him over £400 to sort it

you may not like the facts i have RESEARCHED but until fuel systems are designed to work on bio they will need more maintainance and modification

thats why most proponents like yourself of bio suggest two tanks heaters and changeover valves

I can understand you wanting to be more enviromentally friendly we all do want to conserve the planet

The evidence is out there and the only people making money are the producers and diesel specialists through sorting out the problems

Veg oil is denser than diesel hence the heaters required in the vehicle to raise the temputure of the oil to improve viscosity

I have no problem with bio if recommended for vehicles equipped for using it

A goverment statement on it off course we trust them

in addition VW and Peugeot are printing “not for biodiesel” and citing the use of a Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) as they cannot regenerate using biodiesel

so thats a new dpf to add to cost

 

[Shadeyman]

you may not like the facts i have RESEARCHED but until fuel systems are designed to work on bio they will need more maintainance and modification

"facts i have RESEARCHED"

The FACTS again

"Professionally manufactured biodiesel is monitored by Customs and Excise as well as the Environment Agency. It conforms to DIN 51606 and EN 14214 and so is guaranteed to be effective in any diesel engine without modification"

because Biodiesel professionally manufactured to DIN 51606 and EN 14214 is better for you car than DinoDiesel, not worse. :bang: