Another Dealer Quits

Currently reading:
Another Dealer Quits

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't think VW issues with numbers Of iD cars sold is an issue of botching the marketing but a whole combination of problems including the massive increase in the price of components in the last couple of years, making electric cars now about £10k more than they should be at this point.

I think VW have found as a lot of manufacturers have found that people do want new cars but they are not prepared to pay the price of the electric models, so people are sticking with ICE cars and sales of those is still strong.

VW didn't put all their eggs in one electric basket and continued to develop and release new models of ICE cars as well. Fiat kept a 16 year old model on the books and slapped a half arsed hybrid in it.

On the whole electric cars are not selling now as they were expected to 5 years ago, This is not just a VW problem. But VW are in a strong position with a full range of electric models and they are still talking about new models of electric cars, they are not stopping development because sales have not gone their way. As a company they try to anticipate changes and deliver products when they expect to see those changes occur.

Fiat as a company watch what's going on and see how behind they are getting thing "well I supposed we'd better do something"

To say that the id3 and 4 are best sellers in their class and so it would be a catastrophe for VW if they didn't sell well.... The 500 is a best seller in its class, and still uk sales are Meh..... though fiat paint it as a roaring success.

Whether its VW, Kia, Hyundai they are all selling electric cars on better deals than fiat.


The whole iD thing was supposed to make a distinction between the beetle being the 1st generation, the golf being the second and the iD3 being the 3rd generation, though its worth noting that VW never intended to do away with the golf name, so electric models of the golf are expected in the future as is apparently an electric beetle. The mk9 golf I suspect will replace both the mk8 golf an the iD3
 
And Yet...they aren't selling as many they wanted.

I'm not going to argue the 500e is a success, they spent far too much on a niche vehicle with 0 other plans for the platform. But how is the ID3 doing compared to say the Golf which it was apparently meant to replace?

In general terms...the 500e was always going to be a niche car, the pricing, range and footprint ensured that. The id3 and id4 are in the best selling classes of car if they didn't sell more it would be a catastrophe for VW given the billions upon billions they have spent on a factory they recently closed down early because demand doesn't warrant keeping it open.

You could argue the finance deals point to them being literally desperate to shift them..for a manufacturer with such competitive deals they don't seem to be troubling the best seller lists of late with anything other than piston cars.
I think VAG are smart / admirable from the perspective that, whilst they have no choice but to jump through these hoops as an EU based / EU burdened company with the incoming legislation, as you say, they have a large catalogue of platforms and ICE tech to fall back on if/when the legislation is delayed / scrapped altogether.

In fairness, the 500e replacing the 500, is the best selling car in its class in most of Europe / combined figures. The price is an absolute joke, as anyone buying a £10k 500 with an engine won't suddenly be able to afford a 30k replacement no matter how good it is. Not long ago that was baseline Mercedes / BMW money, and used 'decent' Mercedes / BMW money. If someone did find themselves able to triple their budget, chances are one of those would be their choice.

That's my big gripe with the 'closing the price gap' of EV choices. It's dirty. It's not bringing down the price at all, it's inflating what we have already - the same old steel. Peoples wages don't seem to be rising as much. Cost of keeping the house warm in the winter is taking more % of the budget than before. Again, because we're making silly choices in legislation and importing energy and closing plants. Why? "Climate change". Having to pay 3x more for a Fiat 500? Why? "Climate change".

It's real. I'm not one of those. But the solutions being actual solutions aren't. Any wonder [climate change as an issue] it's losing credibility in the general publics eyes. It's about as effective as terrorist groups here blowing up a McDonald's full of children and families, and wondering why nobody supports their cause, and around half of those who did, no longer care. That'll be the car market in 15 years if the tech doesn't start pulling miracles and the pricing doesn't start coming down drastically.

It's sad that Fiat (and by extension, its dealer network) are being pulled into this too. Had it not been for this, they could have stuck to the old strategy that's done them well for decades upon decade: nearly go bankrupt, then pull out a miracle car like the 2003 Panda with its sales, then the 2007/8 500 and its sales! It just can't / won't work now in the EV age with how artificially and anti-consumer-choice in the way it's being forced. Not denying Fiat's lack of effort either though, totally valid point.
 
Here is an analogy

Fiat selling a Fiat 500 at near £40,000
is like Aldi selling a can of beans for £5 a tin, they may have the best ingredients and be the best tasting beans in the world, but your average Aldi customer is not going to buy them, Your average Fiat customer does not have £40k to spend

There are VW customers who will drop £40k on a car and think nothing of it. There are many other companies making similarly priced EVs with a better range and a more practical package, than the Fiat 500, the 500e is not an attractive package for most consumers, sure there will always be those who will try it, and buy one. but the numbers are probably pretty low compared to how many people want a car in that market segment.
 
Here is an analogy

Fiat selling a Fiat 500 at near £40,000
is like Aldi selling a can of beans for £5 a tin, they may have the best ingredients and be the best tasting beans in the world, but your average Aldi customer is not going to buy them, Your average Fiat customer does not have £40k to spend

There are VW customers who will drop £40k on a car and think nothing of it. There are many other companies making similarly priced EVs with a better range and a more practical package, than the Fiat 500, the 500e is not an attractive package for most consumers, sure there will always be those who will try it, and buy one. but the numbers are probably pretty low compared to how many people want a car in that market segment.

But if we acknowledge that the 500e was a daft idea, the last in a string of daft ideas that lead the company effectively to oblivion.

You could argue that customers that drop 40k-50k on the car that require a driveway and home charging to really work are in general a finite commodity. They've already bought the car by now if they were interested. Those that haven't have reasons a finance package isn't probably gonna solve. So launching cars into that market in general is a bit daft it is very well served.

There's good chance they've got a decent sized house...with a decent sized mortgage which has just got bigger. Decent sized gas and electric bills etc etc.

So it's pretty bad position to be in to have a range of nothing but expensive cars...the best seller list so far this year seems to suggest small and cheap is very much in, the Golf used to be number 1 on this pretty much every year.

 
But if we acknowledge that the 500e was a daft idea, the last in a string of daft ideas that lead the company effectively to oblivion.

You could argue that customers that drop 40k-50k on the car that require a driveway and home charging to really work are in general a finite commodity. They've already bought the car by now if they were interested. Those that haven't have reasons a finance package probably gonna solve. So launching cars into that market in general is a bit daft.

There's good chance they've got a decent sized house...with a decent sized mortgage which has just got bigger. Decent sized gas and electric bills etc etc.

So it's pretty bad position to be in to have a range of nothing but expensive cars...the best seller list so far this year seems to suggest small and cheap is very much in, the Golf used to be number 1 on this pretty much every year.

Oh god... the current Golf. What a disaster. Even if it weren't for the EV topic, they ballsed up so many aspects of it that every other previous model had no issues with.. Luckily for them, VW is one of those brands that people are loyal to regardless of the times they get it wrong. They can probably get away with it now and then (and seemingly do).

I just can't fathom the fact the..
Ford Focus starts at £29,320.
VW Golf starts at £26,565.
Toyota Corolla starts at £30,225
Peugeot 308 starts at £28,050

All around 30k. for C-segment cars that sell in high volume. And each are very much middle of the road, working class brands as it were.

Yes, inflation happens over time but near doubling in a decade, has this ever happened in anybody alive today's lifetime?

These aren't even EVs.

I am quite impressed how often people will trade in their car for the same thing only 3 years later - mobility customers, older people, drivers of the latest flashy cars. Even with Fiat, with how little reason they give us to trade in - same car, same kit / options for the longest time. But I just can't see many people who've life long driven a Golf or Focus part with so much more per month for the same size / practical benefit in life car, regardless of the spec list.

I'm sure in 2014 a new Land Rover Defender was £19k, Freelander 2 £23k, Range Rover Evoque something like 28k. - used to love those growing up, wouldn't never be off the configurator! How did we go in nearly a decade from getting into the 'premium' cars like the Evoque to the everyday, run of the mill, best selling staples from big brands costing entry-premium prices? The cars are nicer and better equipped than before, but by the same step forward as every new model has been.

Fiat's in particular trouble for all the reasons discussed, but it's hard to imagine it's too much better off elsewhere when they're shoving these prices down peoples pockets for, especially for non car people, the same car. Same size / image. Most typical people can understand paying more for a fancier car (badge / noticeable stand out look) and/or 'moving up to an SUV', 'downsizing to a city car', 'buying an MPV for the kids' - tangible, undeniable reasons to justify a bigger or smaller spend. Now if they don't have that, they still need to pay for the same car. It seems to be more than inflation can be blamed for.

I seriously think this is so they can say "it's only £11k between a Golf and ID3". Just imagine the Golf as an example, stayed on earth at even £19k-£20k base model pricing, the £37,115 for the ID3 - it would literally cost double - to have your drive way tore up and waiting for the AA in their diesel Transit to come tow / charge so you can get home. That's what they're scared of. Dirty game. It's the person who has to think about something as buying a car and has to budget their payslip who's gonna pay the price for this misstep in the name of climate. Not the manufacturers, they're too big to fail really. The EU didn't do much to VW for the diesel scandal either, they like to bully companies like Apple and internationally with GDPR but they'll take the credit as 'leading climate change action' with legislation that hurts car buyers (everyday people) knowing full well it won't achieve anything for the climate. Then when / if they backtrack it, we're where we are today: 20 more years of wasted R&D and a bunch of warehouses where there is an abundance of old, wore out EVs that got to 6 years / 100k miles before the battery wore out and every other person you know with a permanent fixture on their drive until years pass and they finally ring a scrap yard to come and lift it and have accepted their £37k investment in that car was a farce.

I wonder, how many people who grew up, got a licence and a car (gradually could afford a nice car) will be stung so badly, that on their income, they have to get the bus or train to work given that their payments for an EV with no use will still be eating their paycheque - I wonder.
 
Interesting reading especially the model Y being at the top. That said I think these figures are a bit all over the place at the moment. Usually both the fiesta and the Corsa being at the top. VW have probably cost the golf its top spot by virtue of its electric option having a different model name. Unusual for Dacia to figure at all and I think that reflects peoples buying habits when it comes to wanting to buy a new car but budgets being squeezed to the cheaper end of the market. Fiat had struggled for a long time to deliver cars and then suddenly they where one of the best selling cars in europe so I suspect there has been some book cooking around when those orders where placed versus when the cars were actually then available and registered.
I suspect something similar may have occurred with Tesla as they had delivery problems in the last couple of years and suddenly they have record registrations. What it does show is those with the money still willing to go electric are still favoring Tesla as the Apple of the car world.
 
Fiats problem was being swallowed by a badge engineer. Beggars beleif they didnt push the small ICE motors for all they were worth untill stopped from doing so as that would surely have made sense. It reamins to be seen where we will be in a few years. What is certain is we need to stop burning fossil fuel now. We seem not yet to have an ideal solution.
 
Oh god... the current Golf. What a disaster. Even if it weren't for the EV topic, they ballsed up so many aspects of it that every other previous model had no issues with.. Luckily for them, VW is one of those brands that people are loyal to regardless of the times they get it wrong. They can probably get away with it now and then (and seemingly do).

I just can't fathom the fact the..
Ford Focus starts at £29,320.
VW Golf starts at £26,565.
Toyota Corolla starts at £30,225
Peugeot 308 starts at £28,050

All around 30k. for C-segment cars that sell in high volume. And each are very much middle of the road, working class brands as it were.

Yes, inflation happens over time but near doubling in a decade, has this ever happened in anybody alive today's lifetime?

These aren't even EVs.

I am quite impressed how often people will trade in their car for the same thing only 3 years later - mobility customers, older people, drivers of the latest flashy cars. Even with Fiat, with how little reason they give us to trade in - same car, same kit / options for the longest time. But I just can't see many people who've life long driven a Golf or Focus part with so much more per month for the same size / practical benefit in life car, regardless of the spec list.

I'm sure in 2014 a new Land Rover Defender was £19k, Freelander 2 £23k, Range Rover Evoque something like 28k. - used to love those growing up, wouldn't never be off the configurator! How did we go in nearly a decade from getting into the 'premium' cars like the Evoque to the everyday, run of the mill, best selling staples from big brands costing entry-premium prices? The cars are nicer and better equipped than before, but by the same step forward as every new model has been.

Fiat's in particular trouble for all the reasons discussed, but it's hard to imagine it's too much better off elsewhere when they're shoving these prices down peoples pockets for, especially for non car people, the same car. Same size / image. Most typical people can understand paying more for a fancier car (badge / noticeable stand out look) and/or 'moving up to an SUV', 'downsizing to a city car', 'buying an MPV for the kids' - tangible, undeniable reasons to justify a bigger or smaller spend. Now if they don't have that, they still need to pay for the same car. It seems to be more than inflation can be blamed for.

I seriously think this is so they can say "it's only £11k between a Golf and ID3". Just imagine the Golf as an example, stayed on earth at even £19k-£20k base model pricing, the £37,115 for the ID3 - it would literally cost double - to have your drive way tore up and waiting for the AA in their diesel Transit to come tow / charge so you can get home. That's what they're scared of. Dirty game. It's the person who has to think about something as buying a car and has to budget their payslip who's gonna pay the price for this misstep in the name of climate. Not the manufacturers, they're too big to fail really. The EU didn't do much to VW for the diesel scandal either, they like to bully companies like Apple and internationally with GDPR but they'll take the credit as 'leading climate change action' with legislation that hurts car buyers (everyday people) knowing full well it won't achieve anything for the climate. Then when / if they backtrack it, we're where we are today: 20 more years of wasted R&D and a bunch of warehouses where there is an abundance of old, wore out EVs that got to 6 years / 100k miles before the battery wore out and every other person you know with a permanent fixture on their drive until years pass and they finally ring a scrap yard to come and lift it and have accepted their £37k investment in that car was a farce.

I wonder, how many people who grew up, got a licence and a car (gradually could afford a nice car) will be stung so badly, that on their income, they have to get the bus or train to work given that their payments for an EV with no use will still be eating their paycheque - I wonder.
This has probably done us a favour as we now stick with what we have for as long as possible saving both our money and resources. I have had more than 10 new cars in a row but those days are definitely gone for ever.
 
Fiats problem was being swallowed by a badge engineer. Beggars beleif they didnt push the small ICE motors for all they were worth untill stopped from doing so as that would surely have made sense. It reamins to be seen where we will be in a few years. What is certain is we need to stop burning fossil fuel now. We seem not yet to have an ideal solution.
Like anything we will have a just in time solution. There is no money to be made buy having an electricity grid or road network capable of coping with a country full of electric cars, because no one would be using the full capacity of the grid. and by the time it was needed it would need upgrading/repairing again.

Same with having a motorway service station full of chargers, there would be only a small percentage of people currently who would use them so theoretically they could sit for 10 years and not be needed. Better to have the solutions read (charging infrastructure and road network) at the time people will need it and the companies can start making money from it.
 
This has probably done us a favour as we now stick with what we have for as long as possible saving both our money and resources. I have had more than 10 new cars in a row but those days are definitely gone for ever.
The way I see it, my Toyota will easily make another ten years. If I keep it until 2033 and the legislation hasn’t changed by then, that’s a good time to go out and buy a new Toyota / Lexus hybrid and keep it for another 15 years. I don’t care how they tax it it’ll never make more sense to sell it for an EV 😳 even if my current tax went from £165 a year to £500 a year, it still wouldn’t be cost effective to justify a new car really.

If I get another 30 years avoiding them, I think I’ll do well.

I wish I could say I’d go to a Fiat again next but that’s really now or never - buy current FCA proper Fiats now whilst they’re for sale brand new or leave it too late and only have PSA reshape models :-/

The new 2023 Hybrids have something like 181hp and 57mpg. Imagine where we’ll be with continued investment and research. Realistically, getting every last mile from every little drop of fuel is the best we can do with today’s technology. Until someone comes up with an actual way to move us about that doesn’t lean on fossil fuels.

You could easily get 15 years out of the current Panda - built new this year - as it’s built on robust, simple and easy to work with parts. Whatever it’s ‘successor’ is probably will share its guts with the 208 / Corsa 😭
 
I think if my Panda is still fit when EV.s are the way to go I shall be converting it. There are no products on the market that I want as it stands and no signs of sensible EV's up and coming either.If I could do without a car I would. but I cant see me riding an electric scooter as I approach my 80's.
 
I think if my Panda is still fit when EV.s are the way to go I shall be converting it. There are no products on the market that I want as it stands and no signs of sensible EV's up and coming either.If I could do without a car I would. but I cant see me riding an electric scooter as I approach my 80's.
I’ve dabbled with selling mine and going bike only. But in Northern Ireland without a car you’re very limited where you can go. Some guy in the 50s decided it was a good idea to remove most of the rail network. Now it’s car or hit the … foot-way?!
 
This is interesting...


It would appear standards are separate areas for each brand but on the same site.

This dealer cannot comply so is losing the franchise.

Perhaps "Stellantis and You" is ******** then..or maybe it's just a small site.
 
This is interesting...


It would appear standards are separate areas for each brand but on the same site.

This dealer cannot comply so is losing the franchise.

Perhaps "Stellantis and You" is ******** then..or maybe it's just a small site.
We all love Fiat here but we all know they haven't given dealers much new steel to sell.

At the same time, besides that, I can't see Peugeot giving way to anything Fiat wants to do if it puts them ahead of it. They put Citroen in its box and it was a free spirited, wild at times French company more into pushing design than it ever was. Peugeot seems to be the foot they always put forward first in PSA. Doubt it'll change now with FCA group brands.
 
This is interesting...


It would appear standards are separate areas for each brand but on the same site.

This dealer cannot comply so is losing the franchise.

Perhaps "Stellantis and You" is ******** then..or maybe it's just a small site.
That's interesting maybe they are looking to separate Alfa and Jeep away from Fiat? it could be they are looking to separate those more expensive brands from the cheaper ones ? Whatever they're doing it's probably not good news for fiat with only a hand full of cars to sell and limited appeal, I can see this is the same reason that Fiat dealerships local to me have closed also, My local dealer of fiats had MG in the same showroom which would really go against the rules. Desira in Norwich had Alfa in the adjacent part of the showroom in a relatively small dealership. I wonder if this is a repeating pattern with all the other closing dealerships.

Perhaps this is away of pushing out dealerships previously long term loyal to fiat and free up franchises to them move them in with Citroen and Peugeot dealerships.
 
Looking at the article that chain has 2 formally FCA sites the bigger one is keeping the franchise. Suggests it's not necessarily related to what they used to do but is entirely related to physical site size.

So after years of FCA lumping everything into the same space they want separate spaces for each brand. This would explain my local one going Lexus it had maybe a 6 car showroom and a forecourt on a corner plot for all brands.

It would make sense to try and actually maintain some brand identity on the site even if it's all 1 group overall.
 
Last edited:
Looking at the article that chain has 2 formally FCA sites the bigger one is keeping the franchise. Suggests it's not necessarily related to what they used to do but is entirely related to physical site size.

It may be after years of FCA lumping everything into the same space they want separate spaces for each brand. This would explain my local one going Lexus it had maybe a 6 car showroom and a forecourt on a corner plot for all brands.

It would make sense to try and actually maintain some brand identity on the site even if it's all 1 group overall.
I think what we had previously discussed was a Stellantis site, where you would go and have Peugeot in one corner, citroen in another, vauxhall over there and a Fiat shed out back.

It is easy to see that with the current line up a single small dealership would struggle to make one brand pay, so will diversify into multiple FCA brands. But if the rules state they can no longer do this I can see this is why a lot are shutting up shop, there is just no money to be had in selling a 16 year old 500 which is so far over the hill its back at base camp enjoying its second cup of tea, A panda which technically is even older and after a light snack in base camp has gone for a snooze.
The Tipo which while not a technically bad car, never really interested anyone and UK sales where measured by counting fingers on Olivier François hand (only one hand was needed)

The 500x showed early promise but from its mid run revamp suffered from a serious lack of any sort of decent engine, its now currently dragging its heels down the metaphorical hill to join the others.

So the future of fiat is a 500e at nearly 40K and the 600 at probably more than that...... both of which are significantly more costly than the competition. In any multi dealership site, I think fiat will lucky if they even let them have enough money to put a sign on their shed. That is assuming that trying to bunch them into large sites in the plan because Fiat is probably Royally F***** if they expect dealerships to be singular interties separate from other stelantis sites
 
The way I see it, my Toyota will easily make another ten years. If I keep it until 2033 and the legislation hasn’t changed by then, that’s a good time to go out and buy a new Toyota / Lexus hybrid and keep it for another 15 years. I don’t care how they tax it it’ll never make more sense to sell it for an EV 😳 even if my current tax went from £165 a year to £500 a year, it still wouldn’t be cost effective to justify a new car really.

I've entertained a similar notion, buying the last hybrid Toyota will sell me. But £30K for a Corolla?! And what will they be in a few years time when everyone is rushing to grab one?

And even if we buy one, we ain't gonna win. We'll be bombed out of our traditional cars with punitive petrol duty. That's how they'll get the last of the refuseniks out of their ICEs.

These decisions have been made, and all the politicians—on every side—have their fingers in their ears.

For many of us, the era of car ownership is rapidly drawing to a close.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top