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This is spot on 👏 Nobody needed legislation to make us buy smartphones or 4K TVs which in many cases started off (and still are) multiples of what we used to pay for a phone
Not really the same thing, the tech giants created the need by preying on us, and it's not really a good thing overall.

The EV car issue is more to do with the oil companies than car companies. The oil companies will do their best to stop EV as it directly affects their profit, so governments need to step in.
 
Not really the same thing, the tech giants created the need by preying on us, and it's not really a good thing overall.

The EV car issue is more to do with the oil companies than car companies. The oil companies will do their best to stop EV as it directly affects their profit, so governments need to step in.
Hardly. Oil companies are amongst the biggest investors in fake green initiatives - EVs being an obvious one. They will benefit massively from the oil needed to burn to power the stations that generate the electricity for these things… especially if we’re all forced with them.

On the tech front…. Go back farther. Nobody force legislated colour TVs on us. People wanted them. The rich got them first. They trickled down to us. Way before the modern data harvesting era. That principle was what I was trying to get across in my earlier post. It predates modern data sniffing practices
 
Hardly. Oil companies are amongst the biggest investors in fake green initiatives - EVs being an obvious one. They will benefit massively from the oil needed to burn to power the stations that generate the electricity for these things… especially if we’re all forced with them.

On the tech front…. Go back farther. Nobody force legislated colour TVs on us. People wanted them. The rich got them first. They trickled down to us. Way before the modern data harvesting era. That principle was what I was trying to get across in my earlier post. It predates modern data sniffing practices
Just heard a major news corporation reporting on Exxon mining lithium to keep up with the EV World? What a complete farce....

That being said - I am not sure the EV will follow the path of the color television.
 
Just heard a major news corporation reporting on Exxon mining lithium to keep up with the EV World? What a complete farce....

That being said - I am not sure the EV will follow the path of the color television.
They won't catch on. Government legislation (when it over reaches) rarely works. Gentle market pressures through tax / incentives is how it should work. Outright bans... I'm not so sure it going to go well with any UK or EU consumers. We're too informed / intelligent, and free to be told what to do like that without a substantially more sensible rational (and some proof in good measure) evidence behind it.
 
Rather than forcing people through legislation to go electric I feel the change should have been market driven, if people can see there is genuinely a cost benefit to running an EV then they will do so. The majority of people may like the idea but commonsense when living on a shoestring means they are not a viable alternative.
Arguably there is a time and a place for legislation and enforced change where people may not make the change. Historically there are always people who will want to pay less and have no concern or consideration for the impact that has on themselves or the people around them.

Going back 30 years, realistically the general public would not be going out and demanding to buy their new car with a catalytic convertor. But the government stepped in and created laws to force automakers to make their cars more environmentally friendly.
Then Euro2, Euro3, Euro 4, 5 and 6 have all been a progression on the drive towards a cleaner future. Again though, no one is going to their local car dealership and demanding to have a Euro 6 car over a Euro 5 car, they just bought the car they liked and assumed that what came out of the exhaust would meet the standards of what ever is required at that moment in time.

The push towards Electrification is the beginnings of Euro 7 where its likely tail pipe emissions will be extremely low or even zero tail pipe emissions as a requirement. If governments didn't push these things people would just keep on buying what is available.

As is usually the case therefore the wealthy who can afford to buy the latest cars will do so and then sell them on later, with the improvement in environmental impact improving as the years go by.

I think the main issue is that the change to electric cars is no just another tweak to the existing technology but a paradigm shift from one technology to another, and with it comes a massive increase in price.
Normal families who previously might get a new car every 3 - 4 years, on a household income of £30-40k now are facing their Average family electric car being £30K + to buy and if they're a two car family then they are facing spending £60k+ on two cars, when in a 3 year period they might own those cars there total income might be only be £90 - 120k at a time when wages are not going up and the price of living has gone up. In the past they may have bought a new ford focus for £18k, Now to keep buying new cars every few years they would need to spend half, or more of their total household income just to keep buying cars.

Many are therefore switching to the used car market which is partly what caused the explosion in used car prices, This however is collapsing now as people are just moving to a make do and mend approach.

You would have to be very foolish to buy a new car right now and then keep switching cars every few years as you are just burning money. Many people myself included and I know other people on this forum have bought new or nearly new cars a few years back and are now just holding on to them, looking after them and not selling them, as this is the most cost effective way to maintain a car.

So while I can see why the government(s) are pushing the change to electric cars, The cost of electric cars compared to their petrol and diesel counterparts, the cost of living going up, the cost of all cars going up and the stagnation of wages, make this the worst possible time to be doing it.

Environmentally we really do need to make these changes, but they are pulling the finances of the general public in too many directions for the man on the street to keep up.
 
That being said - I am not sure the EV will follow the path of the color television.
You don't think everyone will have one in their living room ? I am inclined to agree with you.

Though I do think there will be a time, maybe not for a few more decades to come, but eventually all new cars will be electric, that will just become the excepted norm and people will not even think about making new cars that run on fuel.
 
True. Each amalgamation of brands before were set up over a long time to stand alone and cover all corners. Now we've got multiples of everything. It'll be like the consolidation of Sainsbury's Argos... basically Fiat being the Argos. It'll just get brushed into the nearest Stellantis brand dealer as we've all mentioned a few times. And a lot of the left over Fiat stuff gone if it presents a threat or doesn't appeal to consumers.

Take all of us on here. We all love Fiat and probably represented its repeat customers - as well as the high volume of young girls from well off families buying new-500s in the millions.. Well none of us would touch a PSA / Stellantis Fiat. Even with the decent looks of the new 600. Even if they make the next Panda great-looking there will be a total lack of real Italian engineering or mechanical bits. Brand is basically dead and loyal following more than likely cut.

With Vauxhall though, a lot of the older recurring trade-in folks who got Mokka's on motability have stayed loyal to the brand and now all have the current Mokka... They'll probably keep 'buying Vauxhall' not even realising the business stuff that's changed in the last 5 years. But Vauxhall had a wide, everyman appeal. Fiat I reckon, at least in the UK has always been relatively niche. The loyal Fiat folks aren't interested anymore. The young women that I guess made up a lot of the 500's commercial success, well they also ate up the DS3 when it was current and plenty of A1's and Mini's driven by the same crowd. So even with a nice new 500, can they retain those customers who maybe didn't care so much about it being a Fiat, but sheer looks?

Having stewed on this topic a lot personally, and feeling bad for the people at Fiat (designers, engineers, marketing people who now have to compromise with Stellantis) - there's a bit of anger here, because had they used the money from the phenomenal sales of the 500 and Panda WISELY, we could have skipped the 500L and to some extent, the TIpo which could have been amazing and still not tempted anyone from a Golf or Focus, let alone i30s and Rio's that dominated the last decade here... and focused on perhaps divulging on a cheap bare bones Panda, and a bit more upmarket one / including 4x4 model... a 500 that was cutesy and something a bit more generic for wider appeal (5 door Mini seemed to work for Mini somehow!). If Fiat had've used its resources and strengths a bit better after the TwinAir came out, would it be here today? Surely it was just as aware of and in a position to take EV tech into its sights as much as PSA and VAG have. There's really not much excuse, other than maybe lacking sales of the non 500/Panda models perhaps were a waste of its money... I guess they had to try and appeal in other market segments but honestly the C-segment is a tough one. Maybe they're paying the price for not acting faster and with more precision over its own models.

Up until now engine tech has always been a tricky one hasn't it? The 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3 diesel in the Panda's were only just capable of moving bigger segment cars. A bigger engine usually was its own line or range of bigger sizes for bigger segment cars. With the EV stuff, seems like the same core technology can be applied to small city cars in a lesser capacity (smaller battery / motor) and then scaled up to fit in bigger cars easier and with more similarities than the 1.0, 1.6, 2.0 + engines which all had major differences stopping them from saving on sharing them, let alone the size limitations on some. Perhaps in the new era, the exact same EV tech in Stellantis will make it so they can afford to have more models and options / badge choices without the costs in the past that led things like Lancia to fade away for the most part.

I can't get rid of my Avensis and it'll probably be a long time before the thing gives up being a Toyota (unless BMW's N47 has anything to do with it). But in the mean time, I am watching Fiat very closely and seeing what they do next. There isn't even a glimmer of hope it'll be anything but Peugeot driven badge-engineering. But still.. we will have to wait and see. The EV thing is still unfolding. I think for a while it was looking promising but now that it's more normalised everywhere perhaps the figures aren't quite as fast as expected. That will probably dictate what happens with Stellantis quite a bit. If it all thrives, they will too. If consumers reject them... I can't say where we'll be in ten years or more. I think running an EV company will be totally different than running an ICE car company as it has been until now. I think Stellantis and reshuffles in VAG are a testament to this.
So if I get you right you are going to wait for the Toyota to give up?
Well, as they say... 'good luck with that one'!
Its good to see someone being so environmentally considerate. LOL
No new EV car is interesting, the days of cars having character and variety are going quite quickly. EVs are like white goods and always will be. Maybe a good thing in the long run as all the money wasted on cars over the last few generations could have been better spent. If cars follow washing machines and are unrepairable they will rapidly loose their following and become things you buy and use till they are worn out. The current cost is a joke, its unsustainable.
 
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I know, waiting for a Toyota to give up usually is a bit of a mad one as they can still be going 25+ years on original components! Haha but unfortunately mine has an Achilles heel… in the form of a BMW small diesel engine (grossly too small for the size of the car in my opinion..but I’m no engineer).

For that reason, I’ll drive it as long as I can, use the finest oils and service it twice as frequently as they say…. But eventually the lousy plastic tensioner rails will degrade and cause the chain to snap and the engine to destroy itself (Scotty Kilmer prophecy!). And it’ll be likely sitting in a scrap yard with exquisitely cared for body panels, well looked after interior and it’ll serve the remaining genuine Toyota Avensis with the 1.8 petrols (the bulletproof engine) last even longer… that’s probably all BMW-derived Toyota’s destinies.

I can’t get rid of it because, well, it’s a mid-spec Avensis. And let’s be honest. Nobody aspires to drive or own one. Not even fleet buyers / drivers. Most of them sold likely came down to some finance guys calculations somewhere and 3 years later they’re swiftly sent to BCA. That’s where mine came from. Even taxi drivers aren’t that interested in my (last facelift) model because they know about the BMW engine.

One guy on a Toyota forum has one a year older than mine… 198k miles. Started it up and could hear metal sounds. Chain had went. Car written off. He bought a Prius after. Think he had his Avensis from new in 2017 as well. So who knows how long mines has …

I’d argue the point that Dieselgate and legislation / reputation of diesels around 2015 is probably to blame for that. But regardless, I went against my old ‘hate diesel, hate German engineering’ position I was known for on here - and for my sins, I might end up with a shiny metal street ornament any day now 🤣

Non car people don’t really want to buy an Avensis… car people, they know the hidden shame of the BMW engine. So they won’t buy it. Wise. Nobody has a picture of an Avensis on their wal… oh. 🙊
 

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They will benefit massively from the oil needed to burn to power the stations that generate the electricity for these things…
Oil power stations haven't been a thing for decades - since oil is too expensive. Renewables are a credible threat now, and the fact that exxon are mining lithium means they see it too.

On the tech front…. Go back farther. Nobody force legislated colour TVs on us. People wanted them. The rich got them first. They trickled down to us. Way before the modern data harvesting era. That principle was what I was trying to get across in my earlier post. It predates modern data sniffing practices
Your equating the need for the latest smart phone and 4k tv to that of colour tv? (aside from the joke that the government never had any interest in income from a colour tv...)
 
Oil power stations haven't been a thing for decades - since oil is too expensive. Renewables are a credible threat now, and the fact that exxon are mining lithium means they see it too.


Your equating the need for the latest smart phone and 4k tv to that of colour tv? (aside from the joke that the government never had any interest in income from a colour tv...)
My point may be inaccurate.. although my principle points were: EVs won’t catch on, Government forced legislation is bad / genuine innovations have never needed that historically, and that the energy needed to fuel a nation of EVs will inevitably have to come from fossil fuel power stations as renewables cannot keep up in that scenario… meaning they aren’t even ‘green’ in the slightest.

That was my initial point. Granted, oil per se may not be applicable so for that I’m certainly wrong. But fossil fuel in general dependence .. kind of seems like what we were trying to get away from. EVs don’t sort that.

And as usual, my opinions. May be wrong. Not arguing with anyone who thinks differently. Everything I say and think could well be wrong or proven wrong in times
 
The guy that I mentioned before, who picked up the Niva wheels, worked for one of the big contractors that installs charging networks (not just a little subby maintaining a charging station) reckons the rate we’re going at, with bugger all g’ment investment (other to their mates) they will have to delay again AND invest more heavily in power from other countries (mentioned getting in with the Norway/Germany system?) or build nuclear at the same time as the network as, he believes, there’s no will to go wind/solar/water as their up to their necks in oil/gas lobby money
 
The guy that I mentioned before, who picked up the Niva wheels, worked for one of the big contractors that installs charging networks (not just a little subby maintaining a charging station) reckons the rate we’re going at, with bugger all g’ment investment (other to their mates) they will have to delay again AND invest more heavily in power from other countries (mentioned getting in with the Norway/Germany system?) or build nuclear at the same time as the network as, he believes, there’s no will to go wind/solar/water as their up to their necks in oil/gas lobby money
Can that be accurate? I mean it’s pretty cool and widely accepted now to bash oil. even as a politician - especially as an underdog or opposition - it’d be so so valuable to expose and out and name and shame anybody taking this oil / gas bribery… so (without wanting to sound argumentative) are there any facts behind it? I’m not asking you, but in general can we believe that sort of stuff. It’s cool to be anti-fossil fuel now. It’s not the 60s anymore when they truly did have an unholy influence over decision in roads etc.

I think ten years ago - certainly in NI - a LOT of folks, farmers - not rich politically backed types - did invest in and work with renewable energy companies. Wind farms and the likes popped up everywhere. But it stopped middle of 2010s. I think a lot of people put up big money and investment and frankly got burnt. And now it’s twice as hard as before for justifying investment in current renewables which barely make back their own cost..

As for buying our energy in … that’s a bad idea with the current world events. And just in general. That’s why we paid so much last year for fuel… we shut down domestic production of oil refining to look green… but all it did was meant more of our fuel is imported in at a higher cost. Didn’t exactly reduce our consumption.. or help the environment. It’s just deferring.

Had a chuckle the other day when somebody joked “why can’t we just privately buy carbon credits like the big companies and governments and pretend we’re green too?” 🤣
 
Can that be accurate? I mean it’s pretty cool and widely accepted now to bash oil. even as a politician - especially as an underdog or opposition - it’d be so so valuable to expose and out and name and shame anybody taking this oil / gas bribery… so (without wanting to sound argumentative) are there any facts behind it? I’m not asking you, but in general can we believe that sort of stuff. It’s cool to be anti-fossil fuel now. It’s not the 60s anymore when they truly did have an unholy influence over decision in roads etc.

I think ten years ago - certainly in NI - a LOT of folks, farmers - not rich politically backed types - did invest in and work with renewable energy companies. Wind farms and the likes popped up everywhere. But it stopped middle of 2010s. I think a lot of people put up big money and investment and frankly got burnt. And now it’s twice as hard as before for justifying investment in current renewables which barely make back their own cost..

As for buying our energy in … that’s a bad idea with the current world events. And just in general. That’s why we paid so much last year for fuel… we shut down domestic production of oil refining to look green… but all it did was meant more of our fuel is imported in at a higher cost. Didn’t exactly reduce our consumption.. or help the environment. It’s just deferring.

Had a chuckle the other day when somebody joked “why can’t we just privately buy carbon credits like the big companies and governments and pretend we’re green too?” 🤣
I think the ‘real’ issue is that we’re being sold a pup…the g’ment is claiming that we need ‘our’ oil and gas for energy security. We’ve not had that kind of energy security since we sold off our North Sea resources. All oil and gas is sold on the markets you belong to (OPEC etc) so it’s bought in futures (not exactly like stocks n shares futures etc) so there’s no domestic security
As for fossil fuel bashing, I appreciate that climate change has to be addressed, even for our food security (recent article republished by NFU, and commented on that the UK is experiencing more wet weather, no **** sherlock), but this lot stopped all grants to our own home grown green energy, wehn you realise the politicians are in the pockets of oil/gas, it’s not a huge leap to join the dots wehn you’ve only got two dots, A to B
 
For me the whole thing is a bit reminiscent of the time pre-diesel gate.

A time I have fond memories of paying punitive taxes in despite there being clear evidence clean diesel wasn't and even if it had been my usage pattern would have broken the car quickly and rendered fuel savings none existent..

I'm engaging with electric cars purely in that I can as the same usage pattern isn't particularly great for modern DI petrol cars either but a battery car wouldn't give a crap. Fuel savings will still be negligible...but at least it's more suited to my use than diesel was. So waiting for them to drop to a level I can justify it as a second car for short distances (likely via a salary sacrifice lease to drop my tax bill) and probably keep the other car on as the longer distance steed.

However my main objection is that there's always one answer..."buy new things" and there's no shades of grey. So the heat pump saga..well we had the option this year of fitting one. It simply wouldn't work very well without spending a tonne of money redoing the whole system and would leave us open to noise complaints from neighbours. So instead we got a new gas system..which a true environmentalist would sneer at..but actually it's halved the gas usage of the house if not a bit more compared to the old knackered system. As a result the carbon emissions of the house this year will be much lower than previously surely that's actually a win? The other option would have been keep patching the old system up with string and sticky tape.

An awful lot of this feels like people for whom money is no object telling people for whom it is what to do...what if you can only afford to upgrade your euro 3 car to a euro 6 rather than electric is that not still progress?

As a result an awful lot of it just feels like empty rhetoric, there's one answer for everything and everyone...even if it doesn't work for everyone and is too expensive for most, everything else is punishable.
 
I think electric cars, even electric car sharing schemes made decent in places like Central London and other high emission, poor air quality zones - where people move around a LOT in a small urban area. For that, I admit, they will make a huge difference to air quality and the local micro environment, so why not legislate there? Why not ban petrol and diesels in these areas, come 2035? Invest in making the infrastructure in these zones bulletproof - and optimise support with the likes of the RAC / AA / repair centres in those areas to support all taxi drivers etc getting breakdown cover / good qualified workshops etc.

Legislate it where it can make a difference and for those who won't make much a difference, won't be able to easily adapt due to use case or budget constraints, leave them alone. Why not even legislate it for the likes of urban zone taxi drivers work cars - surely they make up a big part of city fumes? (I don't know the stats on this).

But I think this outright ban, to everyone, everywhere is where a lot of us are pulling these 'EV not fit for purpose' stories from. A sensible implementation alongside petrol / diesels - where they are appropriate - would seem smarter. Then, we'd have a long time for people to either naturally choose an EV as they become better / overcome other issues and they already have neighbours with em' or speak to taxi drivers with them who can give a non forced legislative case for them giving it some thought.

And folks in the remote areas of the Scottish Highlands can continue to drive their ICE cars to their remote petrol station nearby, because of energy black outs or extreme weather etc.. where it makes sense to allow that despite the fumes. Maybe legislate it for people who live within 20 miles of their workplace and those who need to travel (further) for work, they can own an ICE car. If you change jobs or suddenly have a lifestyle need to travel far, often, submit an application and get permission to privately own an ICE car.

Surely something along these lines - tuned with sensibilities that I can't imagine - might be a better approach? Then I'd shut my mouth about 'EVs can't do this.. EVs don't make a difference..'
 
or build nuclear at the same time as the network as, he believes, there’s no will to go wind/solar/water as their up to their necks in oil/gas lobby money
We missed the boat on nuclear, in the UK it takes over 25 years to go from "let's build a nuclear powerstation" to getting electricity out.

And folks in the remote areas of the Scottish Highlands can continue to drive their ICE cars to their remote petrol station nearby, because of energy black outs or extreme weather etc.. where it makes sense to allow that despite the fumes.
It's not even the remote areas of scotland, many areas outside of glasgow and edinburgh are pretty remote in the same sense, a bit like areas in the north of england or wales. Public transport is not great, and expensive - it's cheaper for me to drive into glasgow than get the local bus, and that includes parking! Or to get to work would take around 2 to 3 hours compared to a 30 to 40 minute drive.
 
We missed the boat on nuclear, in the UK it takes over 25 years to go from "let's build a nuclear powerstation" to getting electricity out.


It's not even the remote areas of scotland, many areas outside of glasgow and edinburgh are pretty remote in the same sense, a bit like areas in the north of england or wales. Public transport is not great, and expensive - it's cheaper for me to drive into glasgow than get the local bus, and that includes parking! Or to get to work would take around 2 to 3 hours compared to a 30 to 40 minute drive.
Folk think that remote means being in the middle of nowhere but we’re only four miles from Skipton and keighley, they stopped the buses on top lane 10yr ago and, unless you get up (which the missus has to do) at 6am, you have no chance of parking at the train station, one hasn’t got a car park and the other has 15 parking spaces, the surrounding area only has residents permit parking
 
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