Technical ABS or not confused

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Technical ABS or not confused

puntdrive

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kinda confused right now purchased the punto back in august (as my first car) and so far so good although i realized the brakes felt a bit slack or loose. This was later confirmed to me the other day when i decided to try out my brakes in an emergency situation. During the monovoure which i was only traveling 30 mph the car did a 180 degree spin with cars parked on either side it scared the crap out of me and made me aware of the ABS and braking system.

what i want to do is change the whole braking system front brake disc and pads and the rear brake shoes. However changing the brake pads and discs will only make my brakes sharper and thus increasing the chance of the brakes locking and making me skid what i want to know is do i have the ABS braking system or not i have a fiat punto 2003 8v 1.2 petrol I can see the ABS sign on my dashboard but it has never come on (even when i start the ignition) since i have bought the car. if i have ABS does this mean that it is broken what do i do? MOT comming up someone and all pls help welcome
 
kinda confused right now purchased the punto back in august (as my first car) and so far so good although i realized the brakes felt a bit slack or loose. This was later confirmed to me the other day when i decided to try out my brakes in an emergency situation. During the monovoure which i was only traveling 30 mph the car did a 180 degree spin with cars parked on either side it scared the crap out of me and made me aware of the ABS and braking system.

what i want to do is change the whole braking system front brake disc and pads and the rear brake shoes. However changing the brake pads and discs will only make my brakes sharper and thus increasing the chance of the brakes locking and making me skid what i want to know is do i have the ABS braking system or not i have a fiat punto 2003 8v 1.2 petrol I can see the ABS sign on my dashboard but it has never come on (even when i start the ignition) since i have bought the car. if i have ABS does this mean that it is broken what do i do? MOT comming up someone and all pls help welcome


Hi,
sounds like you DO NOT have ABS,
easiest way to tell..,
each wheel has a speed sensor..look for a black cable running to REAR edge of front wheel hubs..this cable will have a white ( yellowed..) connector on top of inner wings ( under bonnet)

if you've got these..then your ABS is ( somehow)disabled

but I suspect it was never on your car..,

TBH - search "cadence braking.. "
it's what people did BEFORE ABS was popular;)

Charlie - Oxford
 
Easy way to check for ABS is to open the bonnet and look behind the battery. If you have a large blocky object with about 6 brake lines going into it you have ABS as this is the pump module. If no blocky object behind the battery no ABS.

If you do have the module I would be very concerned about the lack of ABS light on startup. What should happen is the light comes on when you start the car as the system runs through the self diagnostic, if all is good the lights then turns off. If the light stays on it has found an issue with one component in the chain and shuts down the ABS system leaving you with normal braking.

It used to be an old sellers trick to pass on a car with faulty ABS to either break, remove or cover the ABS light in the dash so it would not light up to show the fault, the give away with this is the light does not come on at start up. There is some debate that under the new MOT rules a missing ABS light should be an automatic fail. ABS light on all the time is a certain fail on the MOT.

I would be very surprised if a 2003 car did not have ABS. If you are still unsure after looking post a photo of your engine bay and we will confirm if ABS or not.

Given you describe braking hard then spinning out of control I would look closely at your tyres as well as your brakes. Do the tyres have good tread and how old are they. Look on the side wall for a 4 digit code such as 0411, the first 2 digits are the month of manufacture and the second 2 are the year.
 
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thanks for the replies guys did have a look under the bonnet there was nothing there i could move my hand around the battery with out touching anything defently no signs of the abs pump the only signage of abs is never non illuminated symbol on the dashboard. what does this mean? the previous owners took the abs out? will this fail the MOT if they pick up on this? how can i explain it to them? If there is no ABS sensors i will change the full brake sets front and rear as planned i did get 4 new tyres and had them aligned so to reduce the skid problem im also thinking uneven brakes is atribbuting to the skidding can not think of anything else.
and yes cadence braking i first heard of this mountain biking where if u didnt cadence brake when going down hill you would just keep rolling and at the mercy of gravity but u know sumtimes comming bk down to earth cud b good thing talking about bikes makes me wana buy a moped and keep it at the back of my punto :D think this driving malarky really got me hooked :D anyway does anyone know what will happen at the MOT concearning my DUD ABS symbol on my dash board trying not to spend a fortune on these things and making it last a while thanks
 
me either but with out wanting to sound like crimewatch uk they may have prefered the light off rather than on. I just wouldn't know what to say if the MOT examiner asks me
 
Most cars these days use a generic dash, you probably also have a glow plug light dispite not being a diesel and a load of other lights that don't do anything.

Just because the possibility is there doesn't mean the MOT man will think you should have ABS., so honestly just don't worry about it it's pretty standard.
 
ABS became standard on all new UK cars late Spring 2004. Prior to that it would have been an option, but few people would specify it on a cheap car. Larger, more expensive cars had it as standard for several years before that, but only because the manufacturers saw it as a selling point. As it became cheaper to produce, the legislators could then demand it.
So unlikely for a 2003 car to have ABS, but as Andy Kett says, the dash will have a few 'extra' warning lights.
 
i thought abs did the pumping for you maybe you could have 2 wheels on abs either front or back who knows

What about engine braking Is it a viable method of slowing down the vehicle id break slightly from fourth gear to Third to Second. instead of braking heavily from 4th to second
 
My apologies for the length of this, but hopefully it is useful to many.

i thought abs did the pumping for you maybe you could have 2 wheels on abs either front or back who knows

Maximum braking is achieved when the wheels are just about to lock. Very few can achieve that, especially in a real emergency. Practising all day on an airfield or track to prove someone can outbrake an ABS equipped car may be fun, but is of no value in the real world.

When any wheel locks, braking is reduced on that wheel. If a rear wheel locks up, the car tends to try to pivot around, with the rear trying to overtake the front. Just like we've probably all experienced on our bicycles in the past. With one or both front wheels locked, steering is ineffective.

Cars without ABS should have a pressure reducing valve to the rear wheels to prevent locking. Sometimes this is load sensitive, especially on larger cars or vans. If a wheel locks, the rule used to be to release the brakes, then reapply, cadence braking. It is doubtful anyone can do this more than 2-3 times per second, and this releases all wheels. In most emergency situations it is impossible to release the brakes as you slide towards a crash. We just press harder.

So the clever bunnies at Bosch invented ABS. With a speed sensor on each wheel the control module knows when one or more wheels lock and releases that wheel only, reapplying the brake as soon as the wheel turns again. If I remember correctly, this can happen up to 15 times per second, on individual wheels. Whilst operating you will feel a pulsing under the brake pedal as the pump reapplies the pressure.
Stopping distances with ABS will be longer than maximum braking without a skid, but shorter than a skidding car. The main advantage of ABS is steering control. You can steer around obstructions and as the wheels lose grip, the ABS releases the appropriate brake(s) and allows the car to steer. The steering takes off a lot of speed.

ABS always operates on all four wheels, never only half the car. Early systems had individual circuits for each front wheel, but a single circuit for the rear as a pair. Rear drums can still be a pair, but rear discs are usually individual. With now mandatory adoption of anti-skid systems, rear brakes are now all individual circuits.

When ABS operates, it is usually best to keep the pressure on and let the car do its stuff. It is incredibly good at it.

If your car skidded and tried to turn around, there are several possible causes.
A problem with the pressure reducing valve(s) to the rear.
Different tyres with significantly different grip levels.
changing road surfaces giving differing levels of grip to each wheel.
Faults within the brakes, such as worn linings, fluid leaks onto the linings, seized wheel cylinders, etc.

What about engine braking Is it a viable method of slowing down the vehicle id break slightly from fourth gear to Third to Second. instead of braking heavily from 4th to second

Try a little test.
On a straight and quiet road, at about 30mph, sway the car gently right and left. Then repeat with the clutch down and feel how the car is more floaty and takes more steering to give the same amount of turn. This demonstrates how the car is less stable with the clutch down.
Changing down through the gears as you slow is unnecessary, and each time the clutch goes down, the car control is compromised. Recommended method of slowing is to brake smoothly in whatever gear you were in, putting the clutch down just before the 'stall' point, then selecting the next required gear. (5th to 1st if appropriate)
Many higher geared cars, especially diesels, will fight early, so an intermediate gear may be necessary, so slowing to a stop might involve two changes, 6th to 3rd, then 3rd to 1st.

However, in ice and snow, the ABS gets confused and very flustered. A very heavy stop from 20mph on snow can have the ABS sounding like a machine gun and stopping distances enormous. Gently braking in these conditions will get a better result.

Better than ABS is looking further ahead, beyond the vehicle in front and keeping more space, looking around and anticipating events, so reducing the need to brake as a reaction. Try to remove the 'suddenly' from driving.

New cars now have a stability program. This uses the ABS system to apply individual brakes lightly to keep the car in a straight line when braking. (I often get the feeling that the Fiesta is trying to show off, by twitching unnecessarily. Or maybe just not as clever as it should be.)

Emergency Brake Assist.
More clever bunnies in Germany, Mercedes, Bosch and a university, did some research and found that in a real emergency, most people only apply about 85% of the available brake force. More clever programming and if the brake is pressed faster or more heavily than set thresholds, the ABS system will apply full effort. The early systems on Passats, around 1998, were a bit over-enthusiastic and stopping gently was difficult. This is sorted and EBA-equipped cars can stop very quickly, and very violently. Ask any recent learner using a Corsa D.

Hopefully this answers the general queries, and I've not missed anything important.
 
Hi. Bill gave a very thorough answer only wish to add a couple of points. The front wheels have to be rotating with some grip to provide steering. The car will want to go in a straight line if they lock up. Most times drivers wish to make some kind of correction or swerve as well as reduce speed. ABS will in as many cases as possible provide for stopping and steering at the same time. Note the clear advice to brake before a corner. If you slide on the straight release the brake before the corner and you will probably roll round it. Brake on the corner and loose it. So cadence braking is about releasing the brakes for a few moments to let the car corner enough to find the safest thing to hit. . . Otherwise brake as hard as possible ABS or not. If you still have too much speed you did not read the road well enough.
Finally if the car wants to spin really do need to sort that out nothing to do with ABS
 
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