General 500R Restoration

[ricardoreis]

STOP right there Ricardo. There's no need to remove that jacking reinforcement. It looks excellent. If it's that good from this side the chances are that it's OK on the other side. You can see that from lying under the car.

yeah, the inner side isn't very good, so, i want to remove this plate to clean the inner side, and do primer.. plus, this one really needs to go off to take the inner sill out as well. unless i'd cut the inner sill to that side to leave it in there, but then there's another part that has pretty bad rust.. let me go get some pics as it's easier to explain..

 

[ricardoreis]

pics:

not all of it needs attention, but there's that vertical one on the left that should be taken care of, no?

then, there's this, on the right of this support to the suspension:

which doesn't look too bad, but from the top, we would see this:

it worries me, because i really don't know how to deal with it.

then to the right side of the car we get this:

look at the left side of the last photo..

 

[fiat500]

"look at the left side of the last photo."

I would get your car on its side (the old mattress treatment) and get stuck into all that dirt and corrosion with degreaser and rust-remover to see what is left. Although ripping out the whole jacking and body mounting fabrication would help with accessing that admittedly rusty piece, I think that it would be overkill. No matter how well you repair it it wil never be as strong and well-aligned as original.
The main part of that area is stil sound.

PS. The fact that the body is sitting happily on that mounting tells you everything.

 

[ricardoreis]

"look at the left side of the last photo."I would get your car on its side (the old mattress treatment) .

i've seen a few of you doing that one, but always makes me wonder: doesn't that bend any panels? i mean, the car isn't that heavy, but the sides are pretty rounded, the weight isn't well distributed..

"look at the left side of the last photo."and get stuck into all that dirt and corrosion with degreaser and rust-remover to see what is left.

are you able to suggest some links so i can see what products are these? - being in a country where it's hard to find an english speaking person at a hardware store, it really gets complicated to get them to understand what i need - i don't speak the language here, yet.

"look at the left side of the last photo." Although ripping out the whole jacking and body mounting fabrication would help with accessing that admittedly rusty piece, I think that it would be overkill. No matter how well you repair it it wil never be as strong and well-aligned as original.
The main part of that area is stil sound.

PS. The fact that the body is sitting happily on that mounting tells you everything.

can't argue with that - i might sound like a crying baby about the rust on my car, but yeah, i've seen a lot worse - in photos.. that might be my problem, not have seen it worse in person..

EDIT:
went to the car again, to think how to deal with that sill and the plate on the support..
what do you think about doing the cuts through the green lines here:

 

[fiat500]

"EDIT:
went to the car again, to think how to deal with that sill and the plate on the support..
what do you think about doing the cuts through the green lines here:"

The bottom iis about right but I would take it out in stages, maybe you can get away with less than you highlighted. First grind away those spot welds in the way Sean described, where the bit to be removed is joined to that folded "L" section underneath. Take care not to nick that inner bit when cutting.
With the outer sill removed, ideally you don't want to remove the inner so I would leave that for now. For one thing it might be in fairly good condition. My car was one of the rustiest ever and it still has the bulk of the original inner sills in place; I just made a simple repair panel for the bad bit at the bottom. Even if you are replacing it you either need to brace the car with metal rods or wait until a new outer sill gives back the strength.

When you read a lot of these restorations blogs, especially the ones for the 500 where so many panels are easy to obtain, you can get the impression that full replacements are the way to go. Some people aren't satisfied unless they do that; but if your aim is to get a strong and properly aligned body with the least potential for things to go seriously wrong, would slow down a bit more.
You would feel bettter if you got the already exposed inner parts cleaned up to see how far the rust goes. I suspect that many of the bits that look bad to you don't go deep enough to be a problem.
I find that manual methods with an old fashioned wire brush or possbly a small one on the end of a drill, scrapers like an old chisel, thinners or petrol and diluted phosphoric acid for the rust can work wonders.
I wish Bratislava was a bit closer...I'd love to give you a hand with that.

 

[Franko500]

Just from a different point of view.
It all depends on what kind of finish you want.
If you are going for concours and also want to make sure all the rust is gone then I would replace the complete inner sill & the reinforcement panel and the L shape panel you referred to.
If you have that much cut out you may as well go the whole hog!
but be warned as Peter mentioned some of the remade panels aren't quite as good as the originals in terms of fit. However they are made of a better quality steel.
But if you are going for a case of repair it, get it on the road and use it then as Peter said you only need to do the bare minimum as long as the metal is solid. I would scrape the underseal off with a hot air gun and a scraper to see what is left. As long as it is solid you can apply a rust killer, prime it and use sealer and stoneguard/underseal to cover it and protect it from rusting.
If you cut out the bare minimum you are likely to keep the car solid and straight.
Unfortunately I cant stand rust and have to take it all out

 

[fiat500]

"Unfortunately I cant stand rust and have to take it all out"


Hence why you now have a 1970 Fiat 500 as new.

But don't get me wrong, I don't advocate cutting corners. I wouldn't deliberately leave any any structural area weakened with rust or in a dubious state, but I am certain that the original construction welds and alignments are preferable to anything other than the high-end professional work and equipmment carried out in proper alignment jigs.
This is particularly so on these inner panels, where only the most knowlegeable inspector will ever know or care that you have repaired rather than replaced.
On the other hand, my own experience has shown me, in a couple of places already, that Sean's approach is more frequently right when applied to external, bodywork panels. Despite meticulous preparation there are a couple of places on the bodywork where repair panels have been patched-in which are going to need a bit of remedial work next summer.

Away you go Ricardo.:tempt:

 

[ricardoreis]

thank you, guys..
not even sure where to start, as, in a good share of what your both just said i totally agree with you - old panels are of better quality, they fit better (they're there, right?), they provide much much better structure than whatever new i try to fit in there. i also agree (can't really argue with that have seen your cars) that what i call rust you guys would just say it's dirty.. but.. taking those last words from Sean - i can't stand rust - i'd take it all out.

but.. anyway.. standing it or not, i'm far from feeling comfortable with all these cuts, so i'll follow your advise.. i'll stop cutting, and will focus on what can i do to just replace the absolute minimum, from now on. (which might help me a lot more to learn how to properly weld/work metal, than replace full panels anyway)
the inner sills have some holes poked through on them, but i'll try to just fix those sections. i have the brushes that you mention, i have no products for the rust (yet - i'm trying to find someone who could advise me locally on what to buy, as i would prefer to buy locally than order these products online). i'll start with those (brushes).

today i'm not doing anything on the car - went to try to find a drill bit for spot welds but.. people on hardware stores have no clue what a spot weld is - tried two. it was fun, but a waste of time. (these i might order online)

question (as i have no hot air gun) - what's the effect of the gun on these kind of things? does it do something to the metal itself (besides warming it up) or is it to remove the paint/rust? how strong should it be, if i find a decent one to buy here?

again: thank you guys for your feedback, i really appreciate it.. :worship::worship::worship:

 

[ricardoreis]

"Unfortunately I cant stand rust and have to take it all out"
On the other hand, my own experience has shown me, in a couple of places already, that Sean's approach is more frequently right when applied to external, bodywork panels. Despite meticulous preparation there are a couple of places on the bodywork where repair panels have been patched-in which are going to need a bit of remedial work next summer.

this! this is the reason why i was 'blindly' cutting off whatever looked rusty..
i don't want to have to keep fixing this and that on the body of the car just because i cut corners on the restoration.. but i'm very aware that not cutting corners is really complicated with my lack of experience with restorations.

but i see positive things on both of your approaches.. i'll try to combine them from now on..

 

[ricardoreis]

oh, man! this isn't very interesting for most of you (read all, instead most), but i had to share with you.. quite happy about it..
basically, yesterday i was asking a guy i worked here (who has a love affair with a miata) if he by any chance had any clue where would i be able to find something - i think it was the drill bits for spot welds.. and he said he didn't, so, case put to rest there..

about 30m ago, he sent me a message on fb asking: do you by any chance have any use for a protective gel to be applied after welding? if so, i've a 'bucket' with about 1.8kgs which i won't be using.
i'm not the type of taking stuff just because it's free, so, i went to google what was it for, and if i would have any use for it.. and, i think i do.. this is the link below, if you have google chrome, it'll probably do the translation for you (sorry, the page is in slovak)
http://www.zvaracky-brusivo.sk/kate...aracska-chemia/moriaca-pasta-derustit-4120-t/
(if you actually go through it, throw back some links with stuff i should look at)

but even better than that! - after googling i found the online page of the physical store where he bought it from (he couldn't remember the name) and gues what?! - they've all sorts of stuff for welding, work on rust, degreasers, and the list goes on and on.. i really hope they do speak english (would make it so much easier for me), but even if not - this will be probably my source of all magic potions to work on this project! i'm really happy about it!!

 

[fiat500]

I found an English product sheet for a "Derustit" which describes the contents. Mainly water, (as always), with ammonium citrate and sulphuric acid and other chemicals which are probably to bind and thicken it. It will be a rust remover and sounds like the kind that maybe you paint on and then allow to dry to create a film.
I have used a lot of pure phosphoric acid, diluted in water. You can use that two ways, either rub it into the rust and allow an oxide skin to form or as I do, repeatedly and time consumingly put it on, wire brush and the add more untill all of the rust has gone leaving bright, pockmarked steel. Maybe another reason why some people prefer to cut out the rust.

 

[ricardoreis]

yeah, i found it too, but the link i posted above led me to better things..
by their description, seems like this one is used to remove the color around the weld (from the heat) and provides some protection too..

but on the link, found a lot of other good stuff.. degreaser, protec for cracks on the weldings, galvanizers, zinc sprays.. i'll go there in the next days to get more info on the products and hopefully get their recommendations on what's best from their offerings.. i'm really excited about this.. - just have to wait for someone willing to go there with me for translations and so on..

 

[ricardoreis]

another exciting new! there's an english speaking guy working at the store i mentioned yesterday! tomorrow i'm going there to finally check what do they have that can help me sorting out the rust&crap this car has on it..

(i've been reading a few of my posts above and gosh - i apologize for the kicks on your grammar.. i guess sometimes i'm just too excited to spell things right) :$

 

[IanEmery]

(i've been reading a few of my posts above and gosh - i apologize for the kicks on your grammar.. i guess sometimes i'm just too excited to spell things right) :$

We are not the spelling and grammar police , all the forum members are interested in is how you get on with the car, and its rebuild . no worries ?, no apologies needed.

 

[ricardoreis]

here to show what's new today:

different type of brush (had one but too abrasive), angle grinder discs (also thinner grain), paint remover discs, spot weld drill bit, color strip gel, degreaser for the motor bay and to get rid of all silicone bits, anti-spatter (got curious, not really necessary), and last but not least 98% rich zinc paint (I don't really want to hear about rust anymore)..
got a day off tomorrow.. guess where am i going to spend it?!

 

[fiat500]

Brilliant. I hope you also have some things to keep it out of your eyes, nose and mouth.
Have fun.

 

[ricardoreis]

Brilliant. I hope you also have some things to keep it out of your eyes, nose and mouth.
Have fun.

yep, got that all during the summer, when i did my first runs with the mig welder.. didn't use most, but got all the protects needed.. just missing a proper jacket, but who doesn't like some bites from the spats?!

 

[ricardoreis]

hi guys!
little bit of progress and another question on what to do next before i regret another cut..

so, got the brush going on the inside of the inner sill.. still have a lot to brush before it's good, but it's going well..
cut the bit of that back support plate, as marked on that green line from a previous photo (cut a little less than it was on the marked line, because after brushing, the plate looked a bit better further down), which makes the replacement for that one one step closer to be the first weld done on the car..

now there's one thing that's bugging me: the bottom (the panels under the seats) on both sides is meant to be replaced. - they're bent in odd ways, rust all around, drilled trough in a bunch of places - a mess. i've noticed that there's a bar under them that crosses the whole bottom of the car. on the new panels each of them has that bar separated - i want to keep the old one.
but, before even thinking about having the whole bottom out, i have to be careful not to let the sill bend, so, i'm wondering what would you guys suggest me to do about it.
i believe the bottom should be detached from the sill before i weld the outter sill in place, but as i said above, the sill then might be too weak to hold in place without bending.

then there's another thing.. remember that corner behind the seat, next to the inner sill, that you told me to clean before doing anything stupid? i gave it a quick clean, to, again, find out that it's looking better than i thought, but, i think it would be very helpful to cut at least that bottom (the panel for the seat) corner out, so i can figure out better how the rest of the panels around there should look like.

so, i'm basically thinking what's the best to do.. keep the messy bottoms and fix them wherever they need? take them totally off? when and what should be cut? what would you do next?

oh! and that inner fender - the rust poked it through.. advise on that too?!

pics:

 

[fiat500]

Replacement floor panels should have the front re-inforcement bar already fitted. The ends of them should have a little extension tab so that you can weld them to the small piece that wil be left under the centre tunnel. If that has gone rusty it will be very easy to copy it.
Your car has had a replacement floor and this is confusing things. The floor should have beeen fitted under the heavy steel reinforcement at the rear but has been placed on top. All will be clear once you remove it.
I would sort out the rusty metal at the bottom of the "A"-pillar and at the bottom of the "B"-pillar, then fit the outer sill, for now, tacking it in a few places to the top of the inner sill, just in case you need to remove and replace that.
Then you can replace the floors, one side at a time if that is part of your plan.
PS. Just found this fairly recent image of a floor I have fitted showing it going under that plate.
MAL_6055 by Peter Thompson, on Flickr

 

[ricardoreis]

thanks for the answer.. i had that in mind, because i've seen from sean's (franko) restoration that he didn't have the floors welded on top..

but one last question on this part (i hope):
should i take the bottom out now, or after fitting the outter sill?
to me it seems it would be easier now, as the floor has welds done between the sills (the inner sill is welded to the floor from inside - if you think of when the both sills are joined together). but i don't know how much will it affect the (inner) sill if i remove the welds on the floor now. basically i'm just afraid it'll bend, even though it doesn't look like it's under any sort of pressure from any side. just being cautious..

where you have spot welds done all around the floor, they did this instead, inside the sill:

(bothers me that the top of the inner sill is all miserably cut (by me) from when i was removing the outter sill. convinced i was going to replace the inner too.. but since you guys told me to leave it there, i've made a plan to use those cuts for the spot welds.. will do them inside out... in my mind, once it's done, it'll be fine..)