Technical 1993 1.9TD timing.

[Markonee1]

Hi,
I'm posting on behalf of my father who has a 1993 Talbot Express camper with a 1.9TD FIAT engine.

I used to have FIATs namely an 850cc 127, [went like stink], and then 2 off FIAT 127 1300GT's [went even faster, more like an XR3i of it's time]. 115mph was the fastest I went... Alas one GT smashed by vandals, and the other crushed by a badly driven horsebox. Engines and trim live on in Wales somewhere...

Sorry to digress. I am looking for the timing marks for the engine, and the timing setting for the Bosch injector pump. Is there a book on this engine?

The camper spends a lot of time motionless, but has been a good runner until now.
Suddenly had trouble starting. We found priming pump on top of fuel filter had a small perforation. We bypassed the filter just for a few miles to check that it was the filter before discovering the hole. We replaced the diaphragm and reinstalled.
The camper ran for a few days, a couple of miles a day and then suddenly, lost power whilst cruising about 40mph along a slight decline and smoked heavily under acceleration. Idling is fine.
One injector was found to be a little dirty. Cleaned them, and pressure tested them. All about spec of 150 bar. Compression tested the engine, and all cylinders seem fine and within a few psi of each other.
Reassembling and driving creates same lack of power and black smoke, but idles fine.
I think it's pump related. I believe the turbo is operating correctly, but it was rebuilt last year in order to try and reduce mysterious oil in intake syndrome.

The only other change from 'usual' is that the engine has become louder. Maybe the pump has somehow advanced?

Sorry for the long essay, but hopefully it contains most information for a diagnosis
Thanks for any advice,

 

[FreeSpirit]

There is a previous post with some info on the 1.9 TD Cam Belt timing, there appears to be different engine models as in before & after a certain engine No. see https://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/192680-ducato-1-9d-cam-injector-pump-timing.html
if you know which model per the engine No. I have some diagrams I can post if you can't follow the description.

 

[Markonee1]

Freespirit, thanks for the reply.
I'm thinking that as a 1993 vehicle, this must be the 1927cc turbo engine.
Apparently cast in the side of the block is the code M71019 7682294B.

I assume that the lineing up procedure and the pin locking is so that a timing belt can be renewed.

The further information I seek , is the factory setting for the injection pump. For Bosch pumps this involves removing a bolt from the middle of the fuel line block and attaching a dial gauge and reading swing at TDC. The reading I assume will be something like 1mm.
This is the value for the almost identical setup on my fleet of VW Passat 1982-88 1.6 TD's

I have a Haynes diesel engine book that mentions a 1.7l TD with a reading of 0.83mm.
Was this engine [the 1927cc] used in any cars?

Thanks for any further help

 

[Markonee1]

Here's an update:
Engine is 1929cc not 1927!
It's turbo'd
Checking the timing belt I have found:
Crank TDC is at 12 'o' clock
Cam is at 2 'o' clock
Injection pump has marks for 12 'o' clock.

However:
At crank TDC, cam sprocket was out by one tooth advanced, and pump out by one tooth retarded.

More worrying:

Cam is fitted with a stud to lock sprocket, but when bolt is undone sprocket to cam rotational slop is over 1 tooth. No signs of wear, but dangerous IMO, as piston to valve clash more likely if other errors creep in

The injection pump [A Bosch VE type], even though visually retarded, actually already reads 60 thou/1.5mm on a dial gauge.
That would mean it has by far the most advanced injection timed 'indirect injection' engine I've ever seen.

Set up visually, it would be nearly 2mm of pump thrust at TDC, more than twice that of the FIAT 1.7 diesel I have data on and twice that of my VW TD.:bang:

Can someone please comment on the sloppy cam sprocket, and direct me to any data on the Boschpump, alas the Malik site only refers to the Lucas pump, which is timed differently.
Do I need to transfer this thread outof the Ducato site and into somewhere else?
Thanks,
Mark

 

[Markonee1]

Here's an update:
Engine is 1929cc not 1927!
It's turbo'd
Checking the timing belt I have found:
Crank TDC is at 12 'o' clock
Cam is at 2 'o' clock
Injection pump has marks for 12 'o' clock.

However:
At crank TDC, cam sprocket was out by one tooth advanced, and pump out by one tooth retarded.

More worrying:

Cam is fitted with a stud to lock sprocket, but when bolt is undone sprocket to cam rotational slop is over 1 tooth. No signs of wear, but dangerous IMO, as piston to valve clash more likely if other errors creep in

The injection pump [A Bosch VE type], even though visually retarded, actually already reads 60 thou/1.5mm on a dial gauge.
That would mean it has by far the most advanced injection timed 'indirect injection' engine I've ever seen.

Set up visually, it would be nearly 2mm of pump thrust at TDC, more than twice that of the FIAT 1.7 diesel I have data on and twice that of my VW TD.:bang:

Can someone please comment on the sloppy cam sprocket, and direct me to any data on the Boschpump, alas the Malik site only refers to the Lucas pump, which is timed differently.
Do I need to transfer this thread outof the Ducato site and into somewhere else?
Thanks,
Mark

Great site, kind of DIY... must bleach my hair and add a few boobs

Latest update , I decided to treat the engine like my VW and set the Bosch pump to 1mm, or 39 thou. Set the cam accurately by 'sleeving' the lug on the cam to fit the oversized hole in the sprocket. Also checked for squareness of cam by resting a flat on the lobes of #1, and setting a long wrench bar against it and sighting down to the crank sprocket bolt....

The old man drove the camper round a sloping field and said it pulled well and ran cooler with barely any smoke and less noise.


In summary; MOT next week, but for the benefit of others with the 1929cc engine, 39 thou works well for the Bosch pump.
Also be aware of the possibility of a wrongly positioned cam sprocket relative to the cam.....

 

[Markonee1]

Camper passed it's MOT. Alas no smoke reading written down by the tester.

Thus for 1929cc FIAT turbo diesel engines with Bosch injection pump 1mm/39thou @TDC is good enough to pass MOT