Technical 16v turbo

[Karolis]

I think there may be issues doing it that way -- I mean, the 16v block, 8v head -- way. AFAIK, the gaskets don't quite match up and the 16v head bolts are a different diameter (and probably length). There may be issues with the cam belt length.

Before going that way, I'd like to measure the CR, investigate any possible/likely issues.

The head gaskets can be switched.

For the bolts I don't know, yes they're different head but are you sure about diameter and length?

For the timing, I think a complete group from 8v must be used (crankshaft pulley and water pump with 8v belt). Or maybe the 16v cam pulley con be putted on 8v cam, but I don't think so.

 

[fingers99]

The head gaskets can be switched.

But to no usefull purpose if the oil and water passages are not identical.

For the bolts I don't know, yes they're different head but are you sure about diameter and length?

Yep for diameter -- 8v is 9mm, 16v is 10mm. Not sure of length.

I think one block may be higher than the other and this will have a major effect on the belt length. We're probably -- if that's right, only talking 5mm at the most, but that's going to have a big effect.

More than anything else, I don't think anyone has ever done it that way, which is worrying.

Azzam is right about the stud patterns, but we're a long way away from sourcing manifolds!

 

[Karolis]

The oil passages and water is the same. If the head gasket passages are the same they're the same on the head too, so it can be switched.

Woj uses two stilo 1.2 16v head gaskets (they're under 1mm or something) on his 8v punto 75 block.

The block height is the same, because the people use 16v pistons on 8v blocks for decompression.

I have the 16v block for turbo mount tests, sold the head, now putted on it a 8v head and bolted with only one bolt of the 16v, so the head has "big" holes for 16v head bolts. The lenght could be different, I have no way to ompare now, maybe this could be a problem, maybe not (don't know if the 8v and 16v head bolt pushing place/point is the same).

I think it could be done, but in some cases maybe an engine swap could be simplier. I personally prefer a piston-block group "grown up" (used) together instead of mixing used pieces from different engines (like I'll do on mine).

 

[fingers99]

The block height is the same, because the people use 16v pistons on 8v blocks for decompression.

That establishes that the piston deck heights are different, says nada in itself about the block heights.

I agree that it would be a better way to go, but...........

 

[woj]

No, I think my head gaskets are Grande Punto 1.4 8V, but I would have to check that.

 

[Honeymonster]

Quick search for your gasket brings up:

FIAT DOBLO (119)
FIAT DOBLO Cargo (223)
FIAT PUNTO / GRANDE PUNTO (199)
FIAT IDEA
FIAT LINEA

Probably some more but all 1.4 8v

Edit: Part number 55183371

Edit of edit:

Actually here are some more :

Fiat - 500-C Cabriolet
1.2
69 hp
09/2009-

Fiat - 500-Hatchback
1.2
69 hp
10/2007-

Fiat - Albea-178 Saloon
1.2
60 hp
09/2001-

Fiat - Doblo-119 MPV
1.4
77 hp
10/2005-

Fiat - Doblo-119 MPV
1.2
65 hp
03/2001-

Fiat - Doblo-223 Cargo Box
1.2
65 hp
03/2001-

Fiat - Doblo-223 Cargo Box
1.4
77 hp
10/2005-

Fiat - Grande Punto-199 Hatchback
1.2
65 hp
10/2005-

Fiat - Grande Punto-199 Hatchback
1.4
77 hp
10/2004-

Fiat - Idea-MPV
1.4
77 hp
10/2005-

Fiat - Linea-Saloon
1.4
77 hp
06/2007-

Fiat - Palio Weekend-178DX Estate
1.2
60 hp
02/2001-

Fiat - Panda-169 Hatchback
1.2
60 hp
09/2003-

Fiat - Panda-169 Hatchback
1.2 4x4
60 hp
10/2004-

Fiat - Panda-169 Hatchback
1.2 Bipower
60 hp
01/2007-

Fiat - Punto-188AX Box
1.2
60 hp
02/2000-

Fiat - Punto-188 Hatchback
1.2
60 hp
09/1999-

Fiat - Punto-188 Hatchback
1.2 Natural Power
60 hp
09/2003-

Fiat - Strada-178E Pickup
1.2
60 hp
04/2003-

Ford - Ka-Hatchback
1.2
69 hp
02/2009-

 

[fingers99]

I remember Peter of GSR saying that the gaskets are slightly different (but that this could be overcome) at the time this made some kind of sense in that you'd not want the water passages in the head to be in quite the same place.

Of course, overcoming it in a turbo application might cause additional problems.

 

[Karolis]

That establishes that the piston deck heights are different, says nada in itself about the block heights.

I agree that it would be a better way to go, but...........

Don't be so sure about the deck heights (because they're the same or maximum slight difference like 0,2 0,3mm). Have you ever saw the 8v and 16v pistons? If yes, you should know why they're good for decompression, and that's not deck height question...

8V - flat

16v - like a bath

Can't find better pics fast, but there should be a lot on the craib project.

By the way, in garage I have a 16v bottom end engine, and still got the old gasket. Also got a 8v old gasket, will make a comparison in next days.

For the part number, I think the main difference is the thickness, or material type, so different part numbers, but this don't mean that you can't switch them.

Better pics:

For the block oil or water holes difference, yep, it seem's that there are differences. I discovered some by looking opened munkul's engine.

The holes near pistons, the nearest, on 16v block are bigger than on 8v craigb engine.

Photos for comparison:
Craigb 8v block with mixed pistons in:

Munkul 188 16v block with decompression plate on it:

Munkul 188 16v block with head gasket only on it:

Another strange thing for me, very very strange, is that the decompression plate used by munkul covers one hole present on block and on the standard head gasket O_O

Low left angle, where's that diarrea spot No hole on decomp plate, yes hole on block and head gasket. O_O But maybe it's better to open a separate topic for these block holes things

Low left angle, where's that diarrea spot there should be the smaller of these two holes.

(3 holes on one angle, and 2 on the other, on decomp plate we have 3 holes on one side, and 1 instead of two on the other O_O). The 8v block also has 3 + 1 instead of 3 + 2.

Another pic of Munkul's 188 16v block (this is 1.4):

I feel like a crazy investigator, but it's funny for me discover these things

 

[Karolis]

Gived a fast check on my 16v block. Gasket has slight different layout.

16v block has more angle holes, has bigger center holes near pistons.

The bolts are the same diameter but different lenght (I screwed a 8v bolt in the 16v block) so mixing isn't simple how I thinked, but not impossible I think.

Also maybe 16v older and newer block could have more differences too (maybe the bolt diameter).

 

[fingers99]

But given a 16v engine, why not "just" turbo that?

 

[Karolis]

Taste of experimentation

For sure a decompression plate finally is the simpliest cheapest and best way to go if having a 16v.

 

[fingers99]

Cheapest and easiest, for sure, but I like the logic -- if not the metalurgy -- behind Craig's 16v tub.

 

[blu73]

remind me what he did fingers?? was it piston change - i did read it, i just have no memory.

 

[fingers99]

Machined deeper dish in piston, no decomp plate, then rewelded underside of crown to add lost thickness.

 

[blu73]

ah yes, i remember the pics now

 

[Trololipop]

I turbo'd my 16v punto only to find out the VL36 turbo a week later!
apart from the blown turbo everything worked fine,i had a wideband and adjustable boost control however i cut a corner with the ecu as i used a MF2 system when i really should of used a poppper ecu that would retard the timing on boost.
this was my mk2 punto 16v's
nobody has picked up that the exhaust manifold on the mk2 (munkuls and mine) have the same stud patterns but the mk1 16v has different stud patterns!
when my turbo blew :



my turbo setup with a vl37 (t-jet turbo only has a hour left on fleabay )

Hi bud! So the Tjet manifold fits a 16v 188 head? Been looking at the 500 abarth/punto abarth exhaust manifolds and they look like they fit!