Tuning 1368cc 16v - Classic Panda 100HP

[Luke P]

I spent the afternoon skiving at work checking out the megajolt system and in spite of my electrical incompetence I reckon you've got to start somewhere so I think I may well go down the route of megajolt kit ($80-90) and twin Webers... Ford EDIS system should be much easier to get hold of and cheaper than a complete injection unit and ancillaries for a Punto Sporting... Weber 40mm DCOE's sound like the way to go as far as my research in the A.G. Bell tuning book; next question is how to find a pair of them going cheap!!

Anyway, enough of my hijacking of Leweys thread!! Thanks for your help, it's opened up a whole new can of worms!!

Cheers, Luke.

 

[lewey]

A.G. Bell

 

[gran_turismo4]

I really like what you have done mate!! its great!!

 

[arc]

I spent the afternoon skiving at work checking out the megajolt system and in spite of my electrical incompetence I reckon you've got to start somewhere so I think I may well go down the route of megajolt kit ($80-90) and twin Webers... Ford EDIS system should be much easier to get hold of and cheaper than a complete injection unit and ancillaries for a Punto Sporting... Weber 40mm DCOE's sound like the way to go as far as my research in the A.G. Bell tuning book; next question is how to find a pair of them going cheap!!

Anyway, enough of my hijacking of Leweys thread!! Thanks for your help, it's opened up a whole new can of worms!!

Cheers, Luke.

you don't need the ford edis system. the 1368cc has a crank sensor already, and then a pair of coil packs from any fiat will do the job. if you want to bolt it to the side of the engine than can either fab a bracket, or use one from a 16v that uses wasted spark. (mk1 punto, brava/o), that is what i have done on my 1368cc 16v cinquecento.

 

[randomizered]

I take it your odometer doesn't work if the speedo doesn't?

Is the ABS ECU a separate ECU then? And it feeds a speed signal to the main ECU along with ABS information, or is it all sent over the CAN bus (I'm of no help at all if it is lol)

Kristian

 

[lewey]

I take it your odometer doesn't work if the speedo doesn't?

Is the ABS ECU a separate ECU then? And it feeds a speed signal to the main ECU along with ABS information, or is it all sent over the CAN bus (I'm of no help at all if it is lol)

Kristian

You are correct. Speedo is complex issue. I was gonna wait for couple of weeks before diving into this, but no time like the present!

There is no odo and therefore no economy info and the throttle butterfly seems to reset itself noisely everytime I leave the car for a while as the car doesn't think it has gone anywhere (this is a factor according to eLearn thing).

ABS ECU and pump are one unit. The ECU accepts a two wire connection from 4 wheel sensors, power and has CAN bus connections in and out. If I plug in the ABS (no longer easy-peasy with my loom) and the wheel sensors, the dash does not show ABS warning and speed moves to 0 position ready to go. I can't simulate the tiny magnets in the wheel bearings on at least two of the sensors to make it read anything! I thought about mounting the special bearings of the wheels and even sticking the brake lines through it to get ABS and traction control! Now that must be a first on a Panda.

Anyway, further viewing of circuit diagrams shows that non-ABS versions of the car use the final drive gearbox sensor via a different pin on the body computer. I bought one of these devices and replaced the blank I had in my box. Unfortunately nothing happens, but there is a chance that sensor is broken as I got it second hand and not known working. Using ePer it is clear that there is not a seperate part for the ABS and non-ABS versions of the body computer, so if it is refusing to accept the gearbox signal using the correct input, how does it know it is an ABS model???

The engine ECU sends some signals via the ABS ECU to the dash, so I found when I first removed the ABS unit that I got no revs or temperature on the dash! There was a time when I was going to secrete the ABS unit somewhere in the dash, just so it would all work. It then occured to me that if they are all networked devices, I should just be able to connect the input and output wires of the ABS ECU together. Sure enough it works!

Perhaps the best way forwards is trust my logic and get a known working MK2/ 2b gearbox sensor.

 

[lewey]

I was using old notes there: There is only one part for the body ECU because all 1.4 16v cars have ABS and/or stability control. This may be the issue.

The body ECU is the same for all other 8v and 16v cars, some of which did have ABS. It does make me wonder if getting one of these and sticking it on my fusebox and attaching the gearbox sensor to correct pin will do the trick. I believe I will need to have my dash re-synced if I do that, perhaps easier and cheaper to get dash with the ECU. I wonder whether this will work or whether the body ECU will some how know that it has a 1.4 16v rather than say a 1.2 16v attached. Should it care? Next thing is does the immobiliser key relate to the body ECU where it plugs in or the engine ECU?

 

[Luke P]

you don't need the ford edis system. the 1368cc has a crank sensor already, and then a pair of coil packs from any fiat will do the job. if you want to bolt it to the side of the engine than can either fab a bracket, or use one from a 16v that uses wasted spark. (mk1 punto, brava/o), that is what i have done on my 1368cc 16v cinquecento.

I've got a bare 1242 16v engine and no donor car and no ancillaries (crank sensor/alternator/starter etc...), as such am starting from scratch, seems to me the simplest way forwards is to use whatever is gonna be cheapest and most versatile and all things point towards megajolt and edis (I get 2 maps to play with too (sport button!!) and can tune spark with my laptop)... Are you running carbs on your Cento? If so are you using a MAP or throttle position sensor for regulating spark?? TPS seems the way to go at the moment because a custom manifold needs building to fit limited space but manifold pressure sensor could be doable... I have yet to be convinced either way...

Cheers, Luke.

 

[lewey]

Arc's development thread.

Should probably ready that, will help you answer a few of your questions.

 

[randomizered]

The sei mpi uses a spped sensor in the box as well.

It is a 12V HALL sensor, so will probably switch the 12V line to GND. You couls easily simmulate this kind of input to the ECU with some timer circut, rather than get another sensor (just to test).

I pressume you removed the diff casing to fit the sensor. There should be a gear on the shaft output to drive the sensor. If you just placed it in the hole, and wired the 3 wires up (gnd, +12v, signal) then it probabl wan't turning. Spinning by hand or drill should have worked though.

If the ABS sensors are 2 wire, they are probably VR sensors. Are you sure the original car had magnets to trigger the sensors, and not toothed metal wheels?


Just a few ideas, I'll get my thinking hat on for you when it's not 5.40 in the morning

//edit

Also, the 4 sensors would pick up the speed of each wheel and make comparisons (frequency to voltage more than likly). If yo want to fool the system, all 4 sensors pointed at the same ring gear would work fine. They whould never show different rates, and they are non-positional, unlike the crank sensor and ring gear.

You MAY even be able to simulate a speed by pulling the lid off the ABS ecu, looking for a FreqtoVolt convertors(s) and applying voltage on their output (if you can identify and have a data sheet).

 

[lewey]

I really appreciate the ideas. I had thought about the whole "Is it actually turning?" thing. I think I will extract the sensor and turn by hand for testing. Would be sweet if it worked!

The ABS sensors are VR sensors, they rely on a small and rapidly changing magnetic force picked up from special wheel bearings. Very difficult to simulte. I made a wierd contraption that spun a magnet near all the ABS sensors, but didn't get so much as a peep from the dash. Anyway, I think I am very unlikely to use sensors for speed only. If I thought the ABS or traction control was useful, I might persure it. I would much prefer the gearbox sensor even if it means getting another body ECU from a different FIRE car.

 

[lewey]

Took the sensor out of the gearbox today and got it spinning on a drill via a bit of close fitting tubing. It creates a swinging resistance on my multimeter that gets faster when spun faster so probably works at least. Unfortunately, has no effect on speedo readout when wired in using the ABS speedo sensor input or the gearbox speedo input as used by non-abs cars (a few pins along on the same socket).

 

[randomizered]

Ah well, was worth a try.

WRT to VR sensors, they will react to a non-magnet (but ferous metal) with teeth missing. This is what creates the pulses. I have never heard of a VR being used in conjucntion with a magnet, only hall sensors.

The Crank sensor is VR and has no magnet. Sei ABS has a toothed ring, non-magnet as far as I'm aware.

If you can just fit a sei or puto abs bearing to one of the hibs, and point all VR's to it, it should work a treat, and be nice and sinple to do. May even be able to share the one VR setween all 4 inputs, it won't matter if they all read the same speed if it's just for a speedo. Can't see that being too much hassle to be honest.

Stilll, it's up to you You seem to know what your doing :slayer:

 

[randomizered]

ie. This is a bravo/a abs hub. No magnets, just teeth that create pules to determine rotation speed. No position and probably no direction

 

[lewey]

Yeah. Not sure which path is best to take.

Extract from eLearn ABS page:

The sensors are active, i.e. they consist of a Hall-effect receiver that faces a magnetic coding device built into the hub bearing. Under these conditions, the signal is less influenced by electromagnetic interference and temperature.

The sensors are very thin and long. Hard to know what bit is actually reseptive.

 

[randomizered]

can yo post a piccie of them? If they are active they must have supply, earth and signal, (3 wires). I very much doubt they would ground them through the mounting.

If they have two wires they are VR and so a magnet is no use.

Do you have schematics for this car? Purely for my own interest. Been looking for some of the modern 1368 schematics for an age!

Have you seen the donor cars hubs, do they look like the pic?

Sorry for all the Q's, tell me to be quiet if you like

 

[lewey]

Right. Not VR sensors then. They are the new active two wire type. They use a multibipolar codifer which sounds quite hard to reproduce away from one of these special bearings. Looking on ePer, there is indeed a differnt part code for ABS model bearings.

I've attached a couple of pictures from the software manual I have that explain part of what is going on. It is the DTE thing, not eLearn as I keep calling it.

Please ask questions, they make me think and two or more heads are better than one with these logic puzzles! I 'm just glad anyone is replying to this nonsense. I thought I would be on my own.

 

[panda-sport]

looking at your last post I think you may need a "dividing prescaler interface for digitally pulsed electronic speedo's" between your gearbox sensor and your speedo:chin:

like this one? http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=82

 

[randomizered]

@ pandasport - It's a good idea, but the gearbox speedo already puts out a signal like that, however either the internals of the ECU or the ECU software is not configured to accept it.

@ lewey - If you can measure the voltage of this sensor output, or have any idea what it may be, it MAY be lucky enough to link the gearbox sensor output to all 4 ABS inputs. It certainly puts out the right waveform. If it's speed matches the ABS ensors speed, i'd be very supprised though.

On another trail of thought entirely, does the ECU send a speed signal to the dash, or is that a can signal from the ECU?

Defintaly looks like too much work to neatly install the ABS unit etc. now. I agree you may be better with a non ABS ECU if you can find one.

All looks a right pain in the arse though lol

Next thing is does the immobiliser key relate to the body ECU where it plugs in or the engine ECU?

I'd imagine its both, but no evidence for that.

Should have bunged a throttle body on there, linked up your accelerator cable, adn stuck in an old uncoded mk1 16v ecu.

Or build or buy some aftermarket managment

Kristian

 

[lewey]

On another trail of thought entirely, does the ECU send a speed signal to the dash, or is that a can signal from the ECU?

Defintaly looks like too much work to neatly install the ABS unit etc. now. I agree you may be better with a non ABS ECU if you can find one.

All looks a right pain in the arse though lol

I hear you. A pain in the arse to certain extent, but I wanted something different to the how fast can I make it go thing. I've already got a car that I'll never make it faster than. I'm curious as to how fast a Panda I can make without compromising usability or effiency so I can use it every day on my 200 mile a week commute. Using crude measurments i'll admit, I got 45MPG this week and I've been caning it 1/2 the time.

The body ECU recognises the key in the ignition and sens the signal to the egnine ECU. It is then the engine ECU that sends the enablement signal to the body ECU that allows the engine to start and displays error or OK on dash. This daisy chain description to me says that it is the engine ECU that has the code, but it may not be that simple. It's funny how if you look for late ECUs on eBay, they are all bundling all sort of unrealted stuff in an effort to make sure they don't get a return. They all have their own idea about what is neccessary!

I think I will refine the questions and ask them in the Punto forum as they are clued up on this stuff. One thing is for sure, even if a different body ECU works and cures some problems, I will have to get the units proxy aligned at FIAT. They might not want to do my car!