Tuning 1368cc 16v - Classic Panda 100HP

[lewey]

The LEDA based suspension for the Panda is now built off car using some of these parts and is ready to fit. I've been ill for weeks with some viral thing, but I will fit ASAP!

I have finished removing all the parts I want and might want from a Y10 I have. It is heading for the scrap heap THIS FRIDAY LUNCH as part of my "must sell things I don't need now" attitude. If you need anything in particular for some wierd upgrade I haven't thought of or perhaps a rare spare for your Mk2 Y10s I know you all have in the garage, PM me.

Link to ad

 

[lewey]

New suspension saga
Hardcore Panda enthusiasts only need read the following boring yarn!

Got round to fitting the new suspension 3 weeks ago now. What a saga this turned into!

I wanted to fit my special LEDA race suspension (blue set in photos) built for a Y10 and seriously stiff looking. To do this, I had to fit Y10 hubs to these Y10 struts and then use Panda spring tops to get them in the turrets. Spent an afternoon putting it all together and putting it on car. Came to put the springs on and they wouldn't fit. The wire is so thick, they wouldn't fit over the holders in the rear axle or the chassis. Frustrated, I put the old springs back on and having had a bounce or two on the front and it not move at all, decided the LEDA stuff was rediculously stiff, let alone mal-fitting on the rear and scrapped the idea of fitting it.

I then turned to some brand new unfitted Bilstein gas Y10 struts (pictured) and rear dampers I had in the garage from my last Y10 that rusted before I could fit them. I promptly found some OMP Y10 springs on eBay for £49 delivered and fit it all the following weekend. Looked good and fit well, then I came to fitting the steering rod ends and found the Y10 strut arms where they attach are just too damn low. I knew they would be low, but this was causing a 40 degree angle from the rack and was fouling on the chassis when the wheels weren't on the ground. After all the work I had done, I carried on and did the other side. Went for a drive and... oh dear. When steering, one side of the car would lift up as the steering arms yanked on the Y10 strut arms. This made for lethal handling above 10 MPH and I abandoned that idea at the end of the road.

Realising I was gonna have to stop trying to use Y10 parts I have "handily" lying about, I ordered some Panda Spax SSX springs and some Panda Bilstein front struts from europerformance.co.uk. Panda front springs are different, so had to get new ones. I was able to re-use the Bilstein rear dampers already on the car as they are the same part number as the Y10's. Hooray, a saving! I finally got it all fitted yesterday after having retured all the front suspension back to Panda-ness. That'll teach me!

Also fitted an excellent condition supersprint manifold (pictured) I bought from the FF classifieds and fit a Y10 anti-roll bar (pictured).

Handling is obviously much better than before and the ride is good too. Most obvious thing is the improved roll characteristics through corners. It's a pleasure to take corners fast now, although getting the power on out of corners is still a pain as the inside wheel will just spin up. I am now on the list for a Quaife LSD in the group buy section of this forum.

 

[pandamonius_maximus]

Cool, looking good! Did the y10 roll bar made a big difference? I have yet to fit mine as I have been too busy and the car is needed every day it seems

Si

 

[lewey]

Cool, looking good! Did the y10 roll bar made a big difference? I have yet to fit mine as I have been too busy and the car is needed every day it seems

Si

I only fitted this a minute ago, so haven't had a chance to really tell. Initial impressions were that it does reduce roll even further than the springs did on their own. The advantage of the bar is that it improves the roll without compromising ride quality too much. Seems as comfortable as before, but flatter on the roundabouts. The jump form standard spring to lower ones will always be the biggest leap though due to lowering of roll centre and stiffening.

 

[pandamonius_maximus]

I only fitted this a minute ago, so haven't had a chance to really tell. Initial impressions were that it does reduce roll even further than the springs did on their own. The advantage of the bar is that it improves the roll without compromising ride quality too much. Seems as comfortable as before, but flatter on the roundabouts. The jump form standard spring to lower ones will always be the biggest leap though due to lowering of roll centre and stiffening.

Thats what I would have thought too, but I am still curious as to what difference it makes to a panda as high up as the 4x4 It will be fun trying either way. Let us know what the fully tested verdict is If I dont catch you before sunday....have a good one and kick some ass!! :slayer:

Cheers,
Si

 

[lewey]

Thats what I would have thought too, but I am still curious as to what difference it makes to a panda as high up as the 4x4 It will be fun trying either way. Let us know what the fully tested verdict is If I dont catch you before sunday....have a good one and kick some ass!! :slayer:

Cheers,
Si

I think the roll-bar will be a worthwhile mod Si. Probably the best bolt and forget mod for a Panda of any spec?

Thanks for the enthusiasm! I have been invited to Long Marston by a neighbour who I've got friendly with over cars. He does Skodas... really fast Skodas. I probably wouldn't have gone otherwise as my real passion is on a circuit, but it will be a nice change and who knows, I might like it! I think I should aim for 16.5 seconds then?

 

[pandamonius_maximus]

I am going to be ambitious...15.9s

Si

 

[lewey]

By the way.

Although I didn't make the car to go very fast in terms of top speed, I did a test on a flat piece of "track" using my sat nav and I struggle to get over 110 MPH. I might creep a few more MPH if I had a very, very long straight, but after 100 it accelerates very slowly, like hitting a brick wall. 110 MPH is 5500 RPM. I don't know whether this is significant in terms of peak power delivery and gearing.

It certainly feels like the aerodynamics are getting in the way. Just shows how bad they are! For me it puts to bed the idea that anyone can do 100 MPH in a standard car as I have seen claimed in "how fast can you go"? threads. Anyone who's anyone claims they have been 100 MPH in their Cinq Sporting, but it must be a combination of over zealous boasting and very inaccurate speedos!

Now it is lowered and I have a new manifold, I'll see whether there is a couple of MPH more in her.

 

[arc]

Anyone who's anyone claims they have been 100 MPH in their Cinq Sporting, but it must be a combination of over zealous boasting and very inaccurate speedos!

I think it is aerodynamics coming into play. My cinq sporting would do around 115 mph GPS with the 1.2 8v MPI engine and megasquirt in there, and hit the rev limiter (7200rpm) in 5th with the 1.2 8v SPI engine there.

I've no idea what my 1368cc 16v cinq will do, as i've not yet mapped it properly. But iirc kristians 1368cc 16v sei was doing 0-60's in around 7 seconds.

Your 1/4 mile times are quite high compared with what the modded cinqs run too.

 

[lewey]

I think it is aerodynamics coming into play. My cinq sporting would do around 115 mph GPS with the 1.2 8v MPI engine and megasquirt in there, and hit the rev limiter (7200rpm) in 5th with the 1.2 8v SPI engine there.

100 MPH would be pushing is for a standard SPI 1108 then, but I take your point nonetheless. It seems amazing that aerodynamics can play such a large part. I do wonder if my engine is giving full power due to the unusual setup I have. I need a rolling road ticket to see if I'm in the ball park perhaps.

Your 1/4 mile times are quite high compared with what the modded cinqs run too.

I've never done a 1/4 mile! First time will be this Sunday.

 

[panda-sport]

Your 1/4 mile times are quite high compared with what the modded cinqs run too.

That's more down to me than the cars ability, I am FF's captain slow The flat windscreen is the killer for the aerodynamics at high speed, some f1 style winglets on the rear of the bonnet may help
Most Panda's running 155's speedos read 70 mph when running at 60.

 

[arc]

100 MPH would be pushing is for a standard SPI 1108 then, but I take your point nonetheless. It seems amazing that aerodynamics can play such a large part. I do wonder if my engine is giving full power due to the unusual setup I have. I need a rolling road ticket to see if I'm in the ball park perhaps.


I've never done a 1/4 mile! First time will be this Sunday.

for sure, a stock 1108 SPI is gonna be struggling to hit 100mph.

re 1/4 mile, sorry had confused the two 16v threads there

looking into drag co-efficents..

panda ~0.41
cinqucento 0.33

panda; http://mayfco.com/dragcd~1.htm

cinq; http://reachinformation.com/define/Fiat_Cinquecento.aspx

 

[lewey]

I ain't no aerodynamics expert....

Co-efficients are one thing, but the drag of the object crucially depends on the frontal area as well. In this case, I imagine the Cinq to be smaller than the Panda, decreasing the actual drag figure even further relative to the Panda.

In the case of the Panda, the brick analogy could rarely be put to better use.

 

[Chas Uno]

Cool, looking good! Did the y10 roll bar made a big difference? I have yet to fit mine as I have been too busy and the car is needed every day it seems

Si

It's a slightly different set up, but fitting an anti-roll bar from a turbo to my standard Uno made a hell of a difference! As Lewey says, ride isn't compromised and in fact stays virtually the same. The difference comes when cornering where the car now sits much, much flatter. Body roll was dramatically reduced and the car felt much more go-cart like. I would imagine you'd get similar results from a Panda even with standard springs

 

[a73uk]

I`ve just found this thread & I`m very impressed with the work you`ve put into this project Lewey! Very inspiring! :worship:

Regarding your speedo issue, I`m guessing you`ve checked all the possible hub/flange interchangibility with newer Fiats, so could a mechanical drive be fitted to the blanking plate combined with a mechanical speedo being fitted in place of the original?

Could a `chopper` be fitted on the output shaft on the diff with a bracket made up on the diff housing to hold an optical transducer, then configering it to the speedo?

Failing that, you can but GPS controlled stand alone digital speedo`s off ebay...

 

[lewey]

Thanks for your positive comments. I could make another speedo work quite easily using either mechanical or electro-mechanical means. The problem is, I want to make the proper speedo in the dash work because it does more than tell me how fast I'm going.

1) Would allow real-time and journey MPG
2) Would allow cruise control
3) Changes the throttle pedal response, which is currently tricky in traffic as fixed on the default that is too sensitive for low speed driving
4) Obviously would integrate nicely and increase odometer properly all in the one unit.
5) Might increase efficiency over time, haven't confirmed yet.

The speedo input is a network signal that cannot be reproduced using another piece of kit other than the ECU in the ABS pump that I don't have anymore and that would not be fed by the sensors due to complex pick-up arrangements far more complicated than the usual hall-effect.

I have another non-ABS Punto system that I have been playing with and drawing a blank due to security measures put in place by FIAT.

I thought there was a solution. Buy a NEW non-ABS 1.4 16v body ECU from FIAT. Must be new so it will code to my key on first input. Only problem is, they never made a 1.4 without ABS. If I had put a 1.2 16v system in, It would all be working. I picked the only FIRE engine that it is not possible to use a gearbox sensor with.

 

[a73uk]

Would it be possible to use one of the Mk1/2 non-ABS ECU`s then?

Would the modern non-UK Fiats (Palio, Asian Mk5 Uno/ Brazilian Mille, Lancia Ypsilon etc) be able to provide a compatible non-ABS ECU or provide hubs/flanges/looms to make yours ABS? this in turn would allow you to have traction control!

[I wonder how a similarly engineered 4x4 would be with traction... mmmmm)

You need befriend someone who works in Marelli`s tech dept!

Thanks for your positive comments. I could make another speedo work quite easily using either mechanical or electro-mechanical means. The problem is, I want to make the proper speedo in the dash work because it does more than tell me how fast I'm going.

1) Would allow real-time and journey MPG
2) Would allow cruise control
3) Changes the throttle pedal response, which is currently tricky in traffic as fixed on the default that is too sensitive for low speed driving
4) Obviously would integrate nicely and increase odometer properly all in the one unit.
5) Might increase efficiency over time, haven't confirmed yet.

The speedo input is a network signal that cannot be reproduced using another piece of kit other than the ECU in the ABS pump that I don't have anymore and that would not be fed by the sensors due to complex pick-up arrangements far more complicated than the usual hall-effect.

I have another non-ABS Punto system that I have been playing with and drawing a blank due to security measures put in place by FIAT.

I thought there was a solution. Buy a NEW non-ABS 1.4 16v body ECU from FIAT. Must be new so it will code to my key on first input. Only problem is, they never made a 1.4 without ABS. If I had put a 1.2 16v system in, It would all be working. I picked the only FIRE engine that it is not possible to use a gearbox sensor with.

 

[lewey]

Even mk2 Puntos had hall-effect sensors for ABS that I might have been able to use, but the 1.4 engine only came out with the Mk3s. IMO there is no point using components like a different body ECU (where the problem actually lies) that requires me to use a different engine ECU that has been designed for a different engine. It will never run right, efficiently or powerfully, which is the 3 things I want from this setup. I would prefer to just have no speedo as apart from that, the car runs beautifully. Other problem is the cost of getting and testing this equipment. It is not cheap and this project is supposed to be ona budget. If I am prepared to spend £300 on ECUs and mucking about, then I should go the whole hog and get a 3rd party system really. I know it's not the same, but there we go.

It is a real shame that the ABS sensors suddenly changed design the month before the engine was introduced as I could be running ABS and stability control quite easily as well as all the speedo calcs working.

I have the car how I want it now, so development is going to slow down as I concentrate on other projects I have.

 

[CLXCraig]

Lewey, having just looked on euro performance. Are these the same part numbers as you bought? theres a few variants of the shocks for different years.

Front VNE-4087
Rear BNE-1983

Damn annoying the prices are for one shock too.

 

[lewey]

Lewey, having just looked on euro performance. Are these the same part numbers as you bought? theres a few variants of the shocks for different years.

Front VNE-4087
Rear BNE-1983

Damn annoying the prices are for one shock too.

They are the ones, 2 of each as they are not handed. They (bilstein actually) have all sorts of Panda variants listed. In fact, they all refer to the same part numbers apart from the Mk1 sets.

The prices don't strike me as that bad TBH. They are discounted for clearance now at most resellers as they are of a certain age. £60 for probably the best performace Panda strut you can get is fair I think.

A warning though. If you were to order them now there would be 2 months lead time, no matter what anything else says, including the sales ticket when you buy them. Bilstein have to make and ship them from Germany to order. I rung every Bilstein stockist I could find and all said same thing.