Technical 1.6 multijet 88kw engine compression

[Aviator144]

Hello, guys! Sorry for not writing for a long time, very busy with work.The following has been done to the car:
1 - the fuel supply in each injector has been reconfigured. The fuel supply has been slightly reduced, something in between the readings before the repair and after the 1st injector repair. There is a little less black smoke, but it is still there. The power has dropped a little. However, during diagnostics, the fuel correction in cylinder 1 is -1.5-1.9, although the parameters on the stand are normal. The same corrections were before the fuel supply was corrected. Option: either the injector has died, or the problem is in the cylinder.
2 - I did diagnostics of the turbine. The test on the stand showed that the turbine is not blowing enough. We adjusted the geometry, the stand showed normal parameters. According to my feelings: at low revs up to about 1500-1600, the car drives very sluggishly. after the turbine spins up, it seems to go better, but I had no problems with the dynamics before.
3 - washed the particulate filter DPF. There was a lot of dirt, washed with special chemicals at the car wash 3 times. Visually, the filter is ok. Did a forced burn. No changes.
That's all. I looked for specialists in our middle of nowhere, either they don't want to take the car for work, Oh, no, it's a Fiat! ))) Or they just don't know how to deal with common rail.I'm in despair )

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Mike, I've got video recording from leakdown test an I did ss of readings - 80% all cylinders. It's single gouge device and i don't know if input pressure was as supposed to be. I guess if input pressure is lower than it should be, air blowout might show high?
With this readings engine shouldn't be able to start at all? And yet I have 21bar compression and no issue with engine start...

Sorry, did I misunderstand your readings?
Did you mean the engine is losing 80% past the pistons, if that is the case then the piston/sleeves/liners/rings, whatever was done to your engine is badly at fault. 20-25% loss is a lot!
This would account for poor performance and high oil consumption etc.

 

[bugsymike]

Hello, guys! Sorry for not writing for a long time, very busy with work.The following has been done to the car:
1 - the fuel supply in each injector has been reconfigured. The fuel supply has been slightly reduced, something in between the readings before the repair and after the 1st injector repair. There is a little less black smoke, but it is still there. The power has dropped a little. However, during diagnostics, the fuel correction in cylinder 1 is -1.5-1.9, although the parameters on the stand are normal. The same corrections were before the fuel supply was corrected. Option: either the injector has died, or the problem is in the cylinder.
2 - I did diagnostics of the turbine. The test on the stand showed that the turbine is not blowing enough. We adjusted the geometry, the stand showed normal parameters. According to my feelings: at low revs up to about 1500-1600, the car drives very sluggishly. after the turbine spins up, it seems to go better, but I had no problems with the dynamics before.
3 - washed the particulate filter DPF. There was a lot of dirt, washed with special chemicals at the car wash 3 times. Visually, the filter is ok. Did a forced burn. No changes.
That's all. I looked for specialists in our middle of nowhere, either they don't want to take the car for work, Oh, no, it's a Fiat! ))) Or they just don't know how to deal with common rail.I'm in despair )

Black smoke is normally one of two things, too much fuel or not enough oxygen to burn the fuel.
So most common is a lack of / or loss of turbo boost pressure. i.e. turbo weak of air leaks/losses in turbo hoses/intercooler/inlet manifold.
I had a 1.6 Doblo that chucked out black smoke , in the end it was traced to a air leak at the EGR fitting on inlet manifold, it runs clean now.
There is a smoke test that can show up leaks from turbo to inlet manifold including intercooler etc.
If no one local can help you may consider investing in as program called MES MultiEcuScan, a company called Gendan can supply along with the correct leads to suit. You can then read the information on your computer/phone etc. and there are many here on Forum who can advise on the details.

 

[tomicdd]

Hi Mike,
So glad to see your post. Yes, they said that it was not 20 but 80% compression lost.
But, I'll take those measurements with grain of salt. I did 3 compression tests at different garages. One was around 15 bar, second 18s and last one all 21 bar. I did oil change 3 weeks ago and total oil consumption for 12k km was 1l maybe, slightly more.
I still have a of oil in intake but whyle I was cleaning intercooler there was a little oil inside.
No issues with start in cold weather, it pools fine, dpf is cracked and maybe it's making mess with ecu with proper pressure readings and I'm considering replacing it for new silica carbid one.
The Most anoing thing was lack of information about factory compression and it drives me crazy. You can't imagine how many times I had to explain to mechanics that compression ratio and cylinder compression are 3 different things

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Mike,
So glad to see your post. Yes, they said that it was not 20 but 80% compression lost.
But, I'll take those measurements with grain of salt. I did 3 compression tests at different garages. One was around 15 bar, second 18s and last one all 21 bar. I did oil change 3 weeks ago and total oil consumption for 12k km was 1l maybe, slightly more.
I still have a of oil in intake but whyle I was cleaning intercooler there was a little oil inside.
No issues with start in cold weather, it pools fine, dpf is cracked and maybe it's making mess with ecu with proper pressure readings and I'm considering replacing it for new silica carbid one.
The Most anoing thing was lack of information about factory compression and it drives me crazy. You can't imagine how many times I had to explain to mechanics that compression ratio and cylinder compression are 3 different things

Yes sorry I misunderstood original readings.
It does seem like oil consumption is getting better now, so maybe "wearing in" the liners to the new piston rings.
Re compression test I recall doing an old Ford York Diesel years ago and getting around 400 psi/roughly 27Bar, but that was non turbo so I think turbo engines can manage with lower initial pressure although more likely to have cold starting problems as they wear.
On engines I have rebuilt using original pistons but new rings, I always honed the bores, gaped the rings to their correct data, cleaned all the piston ring grooves thoroughly and ensured the ring gaps were spaced out equally. I have seen some where all the gaps were in line!
Along with all the other jobs I did on the cylinder heads etc. my engines always started first time and no engine smoke or high oil consumption apart from on initial rebuild start up as I always generously lubricated all parts on assembly.
When I bought the 1.6 Doblo one of the many problems was oil from turbo seal/bearings leaking into inlet, I disconnected the breather to the air inlet and with the new turbo had to run it for some time to clear oil from intercooler, I tested it by holding a piece of A4 paper in front of the pipe disconnected from the inlet manifold and revved until satisfied most had come out.
Are you able to read the DPF pressure sensor readings before and after DPF?

 

[Aviator144]

Black smoke is normally one of two things, too much fuel or not enough oxygen to burn the fuel.
So most common is a lack of / or loss of turbo boost pressure. i.e. turbo weak of air leaks/losses in turbo hoses/intercooler/inlet manifold.
I had a 1.6 Doblo that chucked out black smoke , in the end it was traced to a air leak at the EGR fitting on inlet manifold, it runs clean now.
There is a smoke test that can show up leaks from turbo to inlet manifold including intercooler etc.
If no one local can help you may consider investing in as program called MES MultiEcuScan, a company called Gendan can supply along with the correct leads to suit. You can then read the information on your computer/phone etc. and there are many here on Forum who can advise on the details.

Yes, I have already thought about a smoke test, I will try to find equipment and a specialist in our city.Regarding the cable and the program, I already have it and I can read the parameters when the engine is running.Can you recommend which parameters I should to look at?I am most concerned about the strong differences in the correction of cylinder 1 and compression (the first time 21, other specialists the second time 18). By the way, the order of the cylinders starts from the timing belt and to the right?

 

[bugsymike]

Yes, I have already thought about a smoke test, I will try to find equipment and a specialist in our city.Regarding the cable and the program, I already have it and I can read the parameters when the engine is running.Can you recommend which parameters I should to look at?I am most concerned about the strong differences in the correction of cylinder 1 and compression (the first time 21, other specialists the second time 18). By the way, the order of the cylinders starts from the timing belt and to the right?

Yes a smoke test would eliminate any air leaks after the turbo. I tried doing a pressure test using blanks to presurise that side , but apart from having to replace some weak hose clips it couldn't show me what the smoke test did which a new gasket and bolts cured tonnes of black smoke in my case and going into "limp mode" with error codes of MAP and MAF sensors etc. all pointing me in the wrong direction.
On your Live Data try comparing actual turbo pressure against target turbo pressure, you may also see read Common Rail Pressure against Target Common Rail Pressure.
Another thing is if you have the full version of the diagnostics see if it will accept the injector codes to configure them more precisely, many recommend that but I haven't personally noticed any difference afterwards.
If you bring up the four injectors on Live Data it shows the amount of correction needed, see if the figures settle down as revs increase.
I always think of No.1 as nearest the cam belt , but on my Fiat Scudo it is nearest the flywheel as a Peugeot engine configures that way.
Others on Forum will be able to give more specific advice.

 

[tomicdd]

I have mes and alfaobd monitoring all the time. New sensor shows - 3mbar at key on, 1-4mbar at idle and sometimes over 150mbar when full accelerating. Doe it asks for regen at 100ish km and during dpf examination one "cube" is broken and fell down a bit lower from others at the bottom of dpf.
So I thought that dpf is showing low pressure at idle because of cracks in it and internal damage and it's making all the mess with the rest of engine. In this crazy weather coolant temp with ac at maks reaches 105 degrees Celsius in heavy traffic...
Strangely, fuel injector correction at idle are les that 1 but at driving second goes up to 5.

Yes sorry I misunderstood original readings.
It does seem like oil consumption is getting better now, so maybe "wearing in" the liners to the new piston rings.
Re compression test I recall doing an old Ford York Diesel years ago and getting around 400 psi/roughly 27Bar, but that was non turbo so I think turbo engines can manage with lower initial pressure although more likely to have cold starting problems as they wear.
On engines I have rebuilt using original pistons but new rings, I always honed the bores, gaped the rings to their correct data, cleaned all the piston ring grooves thoroughly and ensured the ring gaps were spaced out equally. I have seen some where all the gaps were in line!
Along with all the other jobs I did on the cylinder heads etc. my engines always started first time and no engine smoke or high oil consumption apart from on initial rebuild start up as I always generously lubricated all parts on assembly.
When I bought the 1.6 Doblo one of the many problems was oil from turbo seal/bearings leaking into inlet, I disconnected the breather to the air inlet and with the new turbo had to run it for some time to clear oil from intercooler, I tested it by holding a piece of A4 paper in front of the pipe disconnected from the inlet manifold and revved until satisfied most had come out.
Are you able to read the DPF pressure sensor readings before and after DPF?

Hi Mike,
Here are 2 records - today's is with maf sensor disconnected and from 18th open road with maf connected. I have doubts for maf to be faulty, do there is no error.

 

[aschiuta]

You have problem with engine cooling. Normal temperature of the engine must be 86-88 celsius degree.
Check termostat if it is the good one for this engine type, check the radiator for obstructions or dirty, fan and fan resistor for first speed. I have same car with same engine and even at outside 40 degrees the temp dont reach 90 degree.

 

[tomicdd]

New original Thermostat installed 8 months ago together with new coolant temp sensor and antifreeze. This one is supposed to open at 92-3 degrees (winter one?). I saw also freon pressure spikes over 25-7 bars in a/c system but my recirculation flap was broken - open and outside was 42 degrees. This weekend I've (with brothers help) replaced recirculation actuator (fun job, lasted all day ) and we'll see. Also, I've cleaned grounding cable connectors cause i had voltage drop between minus battery and ground. Now it's s fine. Also, all radiators washed with pressure washer.
Today no overheating, we'll see what's going on. I agree that even 97 degree is too much. 1st and 2nd fan speeds work fine.

 

[tomicdd]

You have problem with engine cooling. Normal temperature of the engine must be 86-88 celsius degree.
Check termostat if it is the good one for this engine type, check the radiator for obstructions or dirty, fan and fan resistor for first speed. I have same car with same engine and even at outside 40 degrees the temp dont reach 90 degree.

What's your fuel consumption in city drive? Did you check your engine compression maybe? If you did, you'll help a lot with info

 

[aschiuta]

What's your fuel consumption in city drive? Did you check your engine compression maybe? If you did, you'll help a lot with info

No I did not check the compression.
Driving in town at 25-32 degree temp it is 9 - 10 l/100 Km but I have short journey arround 10 Km / day
Winter arround 11 in same short distance.
On long trip example 1000 km the consumption is 4.3 - 4.6. Tested multiple times with journeys to Austria, Greece, Bulgaria even Belgrade.
I have same problem with recirculation flap. I think the upper side motor from your picture is the culprit. I blocked the recirculation flap on open position. For this reason I overfill with 50 grams of R134a the AC capacity. Normal quantities is 500 g. This is the graphic of engine temp and AC pressure on short 5 Km journey in town from yesterday. Outside temp = 30- 32 degree. You see my termostat open at 93-94 degree and after that the temp is steady in 86-89 range even on high revolution of engine or in heavy town traffic. Checked that multiple times on different situations.
After long journeys the interval for dfp regeneration = 400-500 Km after a long period of only in town driving the interval = 100 km. Winter even 80 Km. Engine counter = 300K Km.

 

[tomicdd]

Same distance to work, 10ish km and consumption is as yours. Maybe I'm trying impossible - to decrease it still

 

[Aviator144]

Yes a smoke test would eliminate any air leaks after the turbo. I tried doing a pressure test using blanks to presurise that side , but apart from having to replace some weak hose clips it couldn't show me what the smoke test did which a new gasket and bolts cured tonnes of black smoke in my case and going into "limp mode" with error codes of MAP and MAF sensors etc. all pointing me in the wrong direction.
On your Live Data try comparing actual turbo pressure against target turbo pressure, you may also see read Common Rail Pressure against Target Common Rail Pressure.
Another thing is if you have the full version of the diagnostics see if it will accept the injector codes to configure them more precisely, many recommend that but I haven't personally noticed any difference afterwards.
If you bring up the four injectors on Live Data it shows the amount of correction needed, see if the figures settle down as revs increase.
I always think of No.1 as nearest the cam belt , but on my Fiat Scudo it is nearest the flywheel as a Peugeot engine configures that way.
Others on Forum will be able to give more specific advice.

Is it necessary to do a smoke test only after the turbocharger? And before the turbo? How to properly supply smoke, in which holes did you make it?
I remembered that the required value of the EGR valve and the real one are different, something between -40 and -46. I'll check more precisely tomorrow.
Yes, the injector codes are written and I did it both times after repair and reconfiguration of the injectors. Now the main question is whether I wrote them on the right side)) I wrote 1-4 from left to right.
I will do a test and comparison of the system readings tomorrow, which I will inform you about immediately.

 

[Aviator144]

No I did not check the compression.
Driving in town at 25-32 degree temp it is 9 - 10 l/100 Km but I have short journey arround 10 Km / day
Winter arround 11 in same short distance.
On long trip example 1000 km the consumption is 4.3 - 4.6. Tested multiple times with journeys to Austria, Greece, Bulgaria even Belgrade.
I have same problem with recirculation flap. I think the upper side motor from your picture is the culprit. I blocked the recirculation flap on open position. For this reason I overfill with 50 grams of R134a the AC capacity. Normal quantities is 500 g. This is the graphic of engine temp and AC pressure on short 5 Km journey in town from yesterday. Outside temp = 30- 32 degree. You see my termostat open at 93-94 degree and after that the temp is steady in 86-89 range even on high revolution of engine or in heavy town traffic. Checked that multiple times on different situations.
After long journeys the interval for dfp regeneration = 400-500 Km after a long period of only in town driving the interval = 100 km. Winter even 80 Km. Engine counter = 300K Km.

I had fuel consumption when driving to work 12 km with an average speed of 22-26 km / h about 7.5 liters before repairing the injectors and 5.8-6.2 after repairing the injectors.Highway from 4.1 to 4.8. My Car is Lancia Delta 3 1.6 Multijet 2009.
please measure the compression, we will all be very grateful!

 

[bugsymike]

I have mes and alfaobd monitoring all the time. New sensor shows - 3mbar at key on, 1-4mbar at idle and sometimes over 150mbar when full accelerating. Doe it asks for regen at 100ish km and during dpf examination one "cube" is broken and fell down a bit lower from others at the bottom of dpf.
So I thought that dpf is showing low pressure at idle because of cracks in it and internal damage and it's making all the mess with the rest of engine. In this crazy weather coolant temp with ac at maks reaches 105 degrees Celsius in heavy traffic...
Strangely, fuel injector correction at idle are les that 1 but at driving second goes up to 5.

Hi Mike,
Here are 2 records - today's is with maf sensor disconnected and from 18th open road with maf connected. I have doubts for maf to be faulty, do there is no error.

Lots of information, to be honest too much for me, it does seem there is a slight delay or imbalance, but in fairness I am not qualified to give a good opinion.
Others on Forum may give more insight into the figures.
As you say, nothing conclusive to condemn the MAF sensor and no error code.
Usually for the DPF to self clean, engine has to be at correct running temp about 90 degrees Centigrade and in middle of gauge, then ideally a run of about 30 miles with engine revs at 3000rpm fairly constant. I did that on a daughters VW Golf Plus 1.6 along with DPF additive in the fuel tank , it put the light out and restored the low throttle response, but all vehicles are different and she only uses for short trips generally and hasn't found what the right pedal is for
She had a similar issue on a Golf GTD 130hp 6 speed with the variable vane turbo gumming up.

Is it necessary to do a smoke test only after the turbocharger? And before the turbo? How to properly supply smoke, in which holes did you make it?
I remembered that the required value of the EGR valve and the real one are different, something between -40 and -46. I'll check more precisely tomorrow.
Yes, the injector codes are written and I did it both times after repair and reconfiguration of the injectors. Now the main question is whether I wrote them on the right side)) I wrote 1-4 from left to right.
I will do a test and comparison of the system readings tomorrow, which I will inform you about immediately.

There is a proper bit of kit that blows into inlet from just after the turbo introducing smoke, so any leaks become visible. Not cheap though.

 

[tomicdd]

So, next steps are set. For 2 days I was driving a car with maf disconnected. I have noticed better response to throttle, no smoke at all and it shows 3l les fuel consumption full city ride! Coolant temp is 92-94 degrees with a on (32 degrees outside) and I've bought new maf, new dpf sensor, map was changed few weeks ago, and tomorrow I'm going to change dpf core at specialist with 2y warranty.
Dpf temp us much lower, 250ish, idle consumption from 1020 to 720 can't remember value with a/c on. No maf light. It was never changed and I have car since 2016.
Suicide, I know, I'm just wandering what's going g to be after all

 

[Aviator144]

So, next steps are set. For 2 days I was driving a car with maf disconnected. I have noticed better response to throttle, no smoke at all and it shows 3l les fuel consumption full city ride! Coolant temp is 92-94 degrees with a on (32 degrees outside) and I've bought new maf, new dpf sensor, map was changed few weeks ago, and tomorrow I'm going to change dpf core at specialist with 2y warranty.
Dpf temp us much lower, 250ish, idle consumption from 1020 to 720 can't remember value with a/c on. No maf light. It was never changed and I have car since 2016.
Suicide, I know, I'm just wandering what's going g to be after all

please tell us, was there black smoke from the exhaust pipe before the temporary disconnection of the MAF sensor?

 

[tomicdd]

Nope, clean "air". Sometimes when dpf is about to regenerate it was barely visible smoke when you hit hard accelerator. Dpf regent was happening smokeless also.
New maf hits over 1000mg/inj in today's ride, old one never reached 900.
Dpf is under works right now and they'll change also rear muffler - it's gone.
I'll let u know how it went eventually

 

[Aviator144]

Hi guys! Yesterday I did a smoke test. Result: no air leaks anywhere. I thought that the smoke device was faulty, but when I unscrewed the oil filler cap, this smoke came out under good pressure. So there are no leaks...
On Mike's advice, I compared the values of boost, air supply, and rail pressure. When idling, the same value of incoming air quantity is maintained for about 2 minutes, but then the Intake air quantity value starts to grow! In addition, at idle, the values of the pressor boost are also different. Although the turbine after repair on the stand, where it showed that it did not blow enough even before the repair. The geometry position is normal, it seems. What could be the matter?
There are also some differences in the EGR valve. Actual position is -0.02, desired position is -0.40. Attached a photo of the program. I also have a video, I can attach it or send it to the website (if possible) or WhatsApp if necessary.
In addition, I performed an endoscopic inspection of the cylinders and valves. The cylinder hone is good, there is a small carbon deposit, but the valves do not shine at the point of contact, and are also covered in carbon deposits. I also have a video, I will send it to the person who understands and can help.Please share your opinion on this matter. Thank's!