Hi all, I'd be grateful of some advice about a problem we're having with my father's 57 plate Panda 1.2 Eleganza, which has a 5-speed daul logic gearbox. It has done less than 19k miles from new and recently passed an MOT with no advisories. He has owned it for around 3 years and has had it serviced by his local Fiat dealer, but only a 'short service' (which, I think, means just an oil and filter change?).

For a few months, he has been complaining of severe jerkiness when first driving off in the morning with a cold engine, in fact so severe that a loud banging noise can often be heard both inside and outside the vehicle... unfortunately I live some way from him so have never witnessed this banging in person. However, I managed to visit him yesterday so he was able to demonstrate the problem to me, at least to some degree (the problem was not severe enough to cause the banging noise). Actually, I would describe the problem to be the engine dying under the load of moving off, then rapidly recovering with a thud, then repeating this about 3 times in very quick succession before becoming smooth... this happens whether going forwards or backwards and was still just as noticeable when the engine was fully hot. When hot, the idle is a little rough, with the odd 'pop' from the exhaust suggesting a slight misfire (not sure about when cold). The engine revs fine when in neutral and the car seems to accelerate smoothly under full throttle up to around 5700 RPM, before upshifting, but at slow/cruising speeds some roughness/jerkiness is noticeable. As he gently moves from a standstill, the engine and transaxle can both be seen to 'twitch' quite noticeably.

My father does not cover many miles in the car, in fact a tank of fuel tends to last him a few months. Just in case these problems were related to dodgy fuel, we filled up the (almost empty) tank yesterday and drove it around for a while to see if there was any improvement... there wasn't.

I have an OBD2 reader (a D900 model with real-time mode), which we connected up (no Fiat option in the menu, oddly, but setting it to Alfa Romeo allowed it to communicate OK). No DTCs are active or stored and all sensors are giving variable readings while the engine is gently revved (although I do not know what the ideal readings might be).

I've searched the forum for similar problems with little success, but my apologies if I missed a relevant thread. I can see there's a reported issue with newer models needing a dealer remap to correct a similar problem, but I can't see that being an issue, as the car has been absolutely fine until a few months ago.

I'd obviously be grateful for any advice, as I was reluctant to jump in and start swapping spark plugs or cleaning the MAF (or MAP) sensor (not sure which it has!?) or clean/replace the lambda sensors without really knowing where the problem lays, as my experience tells me that this 'scatter gun' approach is rarely successful and can become costly!

Replies appreciated!

I have actually been experiencing the same thing for the past maybe 2 months in my 1.1. My theory points to either transmission fluid or engine oil being cold for a short period of time and then finally becoming viscous and warm.

hey, i used to have the same problem, even in 2nd gear when cold, i went to the fiat dealer and told them my problem, the mechanic told me that the problem was the coordination between the throttle and the gearbox, so he restarted both ECU and sync, and now its fine... at least better than before, still doing it SOMETIMES, but better than before.

hope that help!

Makarintosh said:

I have actually been experiencing the same thing for the past maybe 2 months in my 1.1. My theory points to either transmission fluid or engine oil being cold for a short period of time and then finally becoming viscous and warm.

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Hi, the problem is still there when the engine/trans fully warms up. And there does appear to be a slight misfire at tick over, which I believe is related.

JeanSosa said:

hey, i used to have the same problem, even in 2nd gear when cold, i went to the fiat dealer and told them my problem, the mechanic told me that the problem was the coordination between the throttle and the gearbox, so he restarted both ECU and sync, and now its fine... at least better than before, still doing it SOMETIMES, but better than before.

hope that help!

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Hi - thanks for the suggestion. It did cross my mind that it could be a throttle position sensor/accelerator pedal position sensor issue. I wish I'd thought of resetting the ECU! Although this may not explain the slight misfire.

I'm assuming that the ECU can be reset simply by disconnecting the battery for 30 minutes or so?

...Just a quick check:-

If I tell my father to disconnect the battery for 30 minutes, then will there be any issues for the immobiliser/alarm or the radio???

Left field thought- engine or gearbox mount dying?

Honda Owner said:

...Just a quick check:-

If I tell my father to disconnect the battery for 30 minutes, then will there be any issues for the immobiliser/alarm or the radio???

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should be fine, the vehicles BODY ECU will recognise the radio,

a change of plugs and leads would be high on my priority list,

or else you'll Definitely be looking for a replacement runnbeer mounting bush

Charlie panda 1.1 active owner , 10 years and 80K miles
tough little cars - but need SOME servicing

zanes said:

Left field thought- engine or gearbox mount dying?

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When my father initially described the problem to me over the phone, I did think this as well. But it isn't just one 'clunk' as the torque loading makes the engine/trans shift, it is a series of jerks. And no clunk under deceleration, which I would (in ignorance, maybe) expect if it was a worn major mount?

varesecrazy said:

should be fine, the vehicles BODY ECU will recognise the radio,

a change of plugs and leads would be high on my priority list,

or else you'll Definitely be looking for a replacement runnbeer mounting bush;

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Great, we were a little concerned about the radio code. Good to know it's not needed!

I'll suggest spark plugs to him. EDIT - and leads? Do these Fiats still have distributors and HT leads instead of coil packs? That seems a bit archaic! I must admit I didn't look.

Runnbeer? I'm guessing that's rubber (or do Fiat have odd names for things)

hi, yes rubber..,

:idea:look on eurocarparts for plugs, and leads,,should be less than £20 delivered - for an 8 valve engine, use reg number..

it'll have 2 x coilpacks, but they should be fine

Charlie

varesecrazy said:

hi, yes rubber..,

:idea:look on eurocarparts for plugs, and leads,,should be less than £20 delivered - for an 8 valve engine, use reg number..

it'll have 2 x coilpacks, but they should be fine

Charlie

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OK thanks, he lives near an ECP place, so easy for him to call in (but I've no idea if it has 8 or 16 valves). He did tell me this morning that he'd seen that there were two coilpacks rather than a dizzy, which is a relief.

He's first going to try disconnecting the ECU for 30 mins to see if that resets any 'problem learning' (LTFTs/STFTs, etc) but I've never heard of this happening before on other cars. Then he'll take a look at the throttle to make sure there's no sticking of the butterfly valve (or the actuator). And then he'll replace the plugs and leads.

Then it'll be going to a garage who agree that they understand Fiats, or a dealer.

Thanks again. I will update if/when the problem is solved.

Honda Owner said:

He's first going to try disconnecting the ECU for 30 mins to see if that resets any 'problem learning' (LTFTs/STFTs, etc) but I've never heard of this happening before on other cars. Then he'll take a look at the throttle to make sure there's no sticking of the butterfly valve (or the actuator). And then he'll replace the plugs and leads.

Then it'll be going to a garage who agree that they understand Fiats, or a dealer.

Thanks again. I will update if/when the problem is solved.

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Also something else worthwhile considering if you have a laptop and the fiat ECU diagnostic software is to do a "self-adaption reset" (basically the car goes back to the factory set up for the variable parameters). I believe your describing the same problem I've had for the past 5 years since I owned my panda. Whenever the weather gets colder the car becomes jumpy and hesitant. The self-adaption reset will definitely help with this and also seems to increase my MPG after. If you don't have the software it can be purchased with the leads for around £60-70. Of course checking spark plugs and leads is a must, but from experience the most effective remedy is a self-adaption reset.

As above, the clutch could probably benefit with a recaliberation, will normally help to smooth the jerkiness.

AAB1992 said:

Also something else worthwhile considering if you have a laptop and the fiat ECU diagnostic software is to do a "self-adaption reset" (basically the car goes back to the factory set up for the variable parameters). I believe your describing the same problem I've had for the past 5 years since I owned my panda. Whenever the weather gets colder the car becomes jumpy and hesitant. The self-adaption reset will definitely help with this and also seems to increase my MPG after. If you don't have the software it can be purchased with the leads for around £60-70. Of course checking spark plugs and leads is a must, but from experience the most effective remedy is a self-adaption reset.

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Unfortunately we don't have Fiat diagnostic software. My Father did disconnect the battery for 30 minutes this morning, but it has failed to improve the situation.

Just an observation, but it seems crazy that you need to keep performing a reset using specialist software.

Most Easterly Pandas said:

As above, the clutch could probably benefit with a recaliberation, will normally help to smooth the jerkiness.

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Are you suggesting that the problem could really be the clutch engaging harshly and so almost causing the engine to stall (prevented only by a quick response from the engine management system)?

Thanks. How can we recalibrate this, is it something again needing the Fiat diagnostic software?

And is this something you need to do regularly? I'm beginning to look less kindly upon Fiats, if I'm honest...

If your clutch is hydraulically operated, (AFAIK all RHD are) fresh fluid could really make a difference.

gr J

A3jeroen said:

If your clutch is hydraulically operated, (AFAIK all RHD are) fresh fluid could really make a difference.

gr J

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It has the dual logic 'automatic' type of gearbox. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that this works with solenoids and solid linkages, so doesn't need fluid?

Sorry... Thought we were talking manual
Still... Clutch and gearchange are hydraulic actuated so recallibrating and new fluid might make a big change.
Done some Km's in a Citroën Pluriël with a simmilar setup and that was a nice drive.

gr J

The clutch needs calibrating. Our dualogic becomes jerky if you move in confined spaces and come on and off the thottle. To check if the gearbox has learnt bad habits take the car to a slight incline and try and hold on the incline with throttle. If the clutch is calibrated you should be able to do it. If not the clutch will come in and out which gives the kangeroo effect. A clutch recalibration usual gets rid of it. Its usual worse when cold.
The gearbox ecu is self learning and can pick up your good and bad driving habits.