For what it is worth: my TA Cross was delivered in December, as being a 90hp car. Just checked car documents: listed as 62,5kW, and not 66kW...

I'll have a look at the VIN plate tomorrow in daylight, and have a word with the garage

The Panda Nut said:

Ah but when it rusts it will have orange patches! .... and I hope he doesnt hear you calling him plain, it might be offended and come out in spots! I will eventually get the V5 corrected as a matter of principle. Its time Fiat got their information system together, I am sure some people would be put off by such confusion. Personally I think the TA is very well suited to the car and would be fine off road too so European s loose out. They probably wouldn't put up with the poor fuel consumption and high emissions over there. I am still very pleased with Noop apart from the summer tyres. I suppose the extra m's per g far outweigh the few times I will need extra grip. Even my youngest has decided there is something she cant identify that makes her enjoy her Panda more than she expected to. The problem is she has tried the TA and has her eyes on it! She likes the big step up in power from the little 1.2

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Hee hee... on looking again more closely, I see it says my car is green, but has 'orange interior fabrics'. But no, they are mostly green too...
Did you take a look at the VIN plate to see which engine you have?

Hooray.

Fiat rang today (12 Nov 19)and told me reasonably unequivocally my car is indeed 90hp and the log book is wrong. It should indeed be 66kw not 62 as stated on the V5. This will be corrected. I have said I know this affects others. Once I have the corrected V5 I will let you know so you can also check and if necessary correct yours too.

I would have been surprised if it were not the case as it does go very well.

I must say the ladies in customer services Italy are all very charming. My thanks to them.

Of course, they could just be spinning you a line, to get you off their backs.

*apologies for the cynicism - I've probably been watching too much election coverage*

The Panda Nut said:

Hooray.

Fiat rang today (12 Nov 19)and told me reasonably unequivocally my car is indeed 90hp and the log book is wrong. It should indeed be 66kw not 62 as stated on the V5. This will be corrected. I have said I know this affects others....

Click to expand...

Now, I wonder if that means we will all get upwardly-revised insurance costs since the car is more powerful than the insurers had been told by DVLA (only joking... I hope).

It is not uncommon for the V5 to have not-quite-correct data - but so long as the VIN, engine number and Reg number agree, the rest is only there for information to aid identification, and to set the right taxation. As that is controlled now by CO not power, less of a concern.

Did you ever check the VIN plate details? What did yours say?
A reminder from an earlier post:
If it says 312A2000 then it is the 85PS/62.5kW motor
If it says 312A7000, then it is the more powerful 90PS/66.2kW version.

Pete

My 2019 4x4 cross (which was very definitely sold as 90hp), has a V5 that states 62Kw and has a vin plate with 312A2000 on it. I'll be very interested to hear what others have and how this turns out.

That suggests that my list is out of date, as all the EU6 / WLTP tested twin air 4x4s are 90HP

Herts Hillhopper said:

That suggests that my list is out of date, as all the EU6 / WLTP tested twin air 4x4s are 90HP

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But how do we know that for sure?!!

The confusion continues.

From Fiat's UK Website today it refers to a Panda Cross 85HP. As far as I know all the Cross TA's have been 90HP.

https://www.fiat.co.uk/new-car-deals/offers/panda_cross_4x4

TinyTurbo said:

The confusion continues.

From Fiat's UK Website today it refers to a Panda Cross 85HP. As far as I know all the Cross TA's have been 90HP.

https://www.fiat.co.uk/new-car-deals/offers/panda_cross_4x4

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Well this is the nub of the problem. it seems Waze are now either all 85hp or a choice. When I sell I shall expect a price premium for my 90hp engine.If I cannot have a 66kw logbook, I will have some financial redress. I would settle for 5/90ths of the cost. By my reckoning £576 plus some compensation for being misled inadvertently or otherwise . Around £750 would seem reasonable.

I am happy to negotiate sensibly.

I am going to write to the dealer soon requesting confirmation of engine number ranges with 90hp and also speak to trading standards. Hope is the car is as sold. Its a whopper of a blunder if its only 85!

One certainty is I am neither going to be ignored, mislead or hood-winked. After 25 years in enforcement I think I know how to make the point and interpret the laws involved.

I just want what I paid for or a fair and reasonable settlement.



t seems likely that there is an issue or the solution would have been quickly provided??

TinyTurbo said:

The confusion continues.

From Fiat's UK Website today it refers to a Panda Cross 85HP. As far as I know all the Cross TA's have been 90HP.

https://www.fiat.co.uk/new-car-deals/offers/panda_cross_4x4

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But, read the small print that the asterisk refers to! The headline says 85HP, but the small print says:
"*Fiat Panda Cross 4x4 0.9 Twinair 90HP available from £13,380 OTR (after £3,200 customer saving). Offer valid for a limited period for ordering between 01/10/19 and 31/12/19 and registering by 31/03/20. Model shown is Fiat Panda Cross 0.9 4x4 TwinAir 90HP with no options. T&Cs apply. Vehicles may incur Brexit related tariffs or other charges."
Which suggest the headline is a typo (and as you know, the website is not always correct)

The Panda Nut said:

Well this is the nub of the problem...?

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I think the only nub is a typo or two. The detail (rather than the headline) of the website shows the engine to be 90HP

Run the configurator - just leave everything default and jump to the 'Summary' tab. then you get the answer: (this should open it – see page 8:: https://www.fiat.co.uk/bp_pdf/renderPDF/5dd48d0fd34e4679b9a9a2b4/FIAT_panda-cross_cross_50D15907.pdf) . Most likely a lack of communication between the marketing team and the technical guys. Think you can be pretty certain they are all 90HP coming out of the door...

The Panda Nut said:

Well this is the nub of the problem. it seems Waze are now either all 85hp or a choice. When I sell I shall expect a price premium for my 90hp engine.If I cannot have a 66kw logbook, I will have some financial redress. I would settle for 5/90ths of the cost. By my reckoning £576 plus some compensation for being misled inadvertently or otherwise . Around £750 would seem reasonable.

I am happy to negotiate sensibly.

I am going to write to the dealer soon requesting confirmation of engine number ranges with 90hp and also speak to trading standards. Hope is the car is as sold. Its a whopper of a blunder if its only 85!

One certainty is I am neither going to be ignored, mislead or hood-winked. After 25 years in enforcement I think I know how to make the point and interpret the laws involved.

I just want what I paid for or a fair and reasonable settlement.



t seems likely that there is an issue or the solution would have been quickly provided??

Click to expand...

Interesting though all this is, I think there is only one simple mistake - DVLA didn't update their vehicle spec database, so still think they are all 85HP. There is little doubt your car is, like all the other 4x4 TAs since September 2018, 90HP. I don't think this is for Trading Standards, or Fiat UK (who are, after all, only the selling agent for FCA here). My V5 shows my 'normal' 4x4 as a Panda 'Cross' 4x4... that could mean I should be pressing to have the £1600 of extras that make a Cross 'special' fitted. But no, as I have the correct thing I ordered...

Hmm personally my guess is that my 2019 4x4 cross is 85HP not 90HP, my manual has no mention of a 90HP engine, the VIN plate number seems to be for a 85HP model and the V5 indicates 85HP. The only concrete reference I have to a 90HP model is that the sales documents talk about a "cross 4x4 90".

Does anyone have a 2018/2019 cross that has either a manual or a VIN plate that indicates that it is a 90HP model?

I can't find a snapshot of the fiat web pages when they advertised it as 90HP, does anyone have any screenshots? I wonder what the "specifications" section of the site claimed for the power output when the headline said 90? I notice that the current website states 85HP.

My bet is that there was "confusion" or a "mistake" in the advertising of this model (post new emissions tests) and that they have all been 85hp. But who knows. I'd certainly like to get a definitive answer. But I'm not sure what redress if any I might have as my cross was "2nd hand" being a pre-reg model (with 5miles on the clock), not new.

I've just checked the 2018 and 2019 manuals. All references to the 90HP twin air engine (and the 1.3MJ) seem to have been removed in the 2019 version (along with the fuel consumption data, which now refers to another document). I suspect that when they had to switch to the new emissions testing they dropped the 90HP engine (along with the 1.3MJ) and used the 85HP version on both 4x4 and the cross.

Must say that I liked my old 1.3MJ much more then the TA in my new car...

A message from Fiat's marketing department...

https://images.app.goo.gl/88czwgeXff6gvi8A8

gloomyandy said:

I've just checked the 2018 and 2019 manuals. All references to the 90HP twin air engine (and the 1.3MJ) seem to have been removed in the 2019 version (along with the fuel consumption data, which now refers to another document). I suspect that when they had to switch to the new emissions testing they dropped the 90HP engine (along with the 1.3MJ) and used the 85HP version on both 4x4 and the cross.

Must say that I liked my old 1.3MJ much more then the TA in my new car...

Click to expand...

I might have to eat humble pie... the current (November 2019) edition of the official Fiat price list (which is generally rather more accurate in terms of spec than the website is) does indeed show that all Pandas fitted with the TA engine are now 85HP. See here https://www.fiat.co.uk/content/dam/...November-2019-Full-Version-All-Models-PDF.pdf (pages 49 and 53). Below is a screen grab for the engine spcs of the '2020 model year' Panda Cross. What I can't find is when this change happened [see 'edit' below']. The clearest indication will always be the details on the VIN plate where the model type code confirms the engine spec. (And again, I ask The Panda Nut what it says on his VIN plate – reminder of the codes in the post here: https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-iii/473985-85-90-hp-have-you-got-2.html?p=4484567)

EDIT: However, here's the September 2018 price list which clearly shows a 90HP engine in the Cross 4x4 https://www.fiat.co.uk/content/dam/fiat/uk/Fiat%20Price%20List%20September%202018.pdf (again page 49). And, the July 2019 list also shows 90HP, suggesting the change to 85HP has happened more recently - https://www.fiat.co.uk/content/dam/fiat/uk/pricelists/Fiat-Price-List-July-2019.pdf (Interesting aside: note how "mud and snow tyres" are replaced by 'summer tyres' somewhere between Sept 2018 and July 2019 as well)

Yep as above my VIN plate shows 312A2000 (so 85HP version) I wonder if anyone has a 2019 plate cross with the 90HP engine in it? The 2019 manual (online here https://carmanuals2.com/get/fiat-panda-2019-owner-s-manual-113228) which has no mention of the 90HP engine is dated 11/2018 and my printed manual (which also has no mention of it) is dated 4/2019. So it could be that they stopped supplying the 90 around about then. It is strange that it is still listed in the July 2019 price list though!

On a more general note does anyone know the general FIAT engine story? When did they stop supplying the 1.3MJ engine and the TA in anything other than the cross/4x4 and why they stopped doing so? I assume it was some sort of change in the engine ratings/legislation etc. I wonder if this switch from 90HP to 85HP happened at the same time?

gloomyandy said:

Yep as above my VIN plate shows 312A2000 (so 85HP version) I wonder if anyone has a 2019 plate cross with the 90HP engine in it? The 2019 manual (online here https://carmanuals2.com/get/fiat-panda-2019-owner-s-manual-113228) which has no mention of the 90HP engine is dated 11/2018 and my printed manual (which also has no mention of it) is dated 4/2019. So it could be that they stopped supplying the 90 around about then. It is strange that it is still listed in the July 2019 price list though!

On a more general note does anyone know the general FIAT engine story? When did they stop supplying the 1.3MJ engine and the TA in anything other than the cross/4x4 and why they stopped doing so? I assume it was some sort of change in the engine ratings/legislation etc. I wonder if this switch from 90HP to 85HP happened at the same time?

Click to expand...

The 1.3MJ was dropped from the Panda 4x4 in about May 2018 - I believe I have one of the very last to be sold. Around the same time, the TwinAir was dropped from all Pandas except the 4x4. Also dropped from teh 500 at the same time. This seems to have been caused by the approaching new WLTP emissions testing (that all cars sold after Sept 2018 had to pass). The TA was hailed as being 'the future' when introduced, with the 2WD versions offering less than 100g of CO2 per km and fuel economy of over 70mpg... in the old 'lab based tests'. But, the more 'realistic' WLTP tests showed it to have higher carbon emissions than the vernerabe old 1.2 'Fire' engine, and as everyone here knows, 70mpg was pie in the sky. The WLTP tests now show (in the 4x4) an average 37mpg and CO2 of 132 g/km - both much worse than the 30 year old 1.2 engine. Since Fiat would be fined if the average of their sales exceeded new target emissions, they dropped the TA, but kept in for the 'slower selling' 4x4s (which need the extra power owing to their extra weight).

The MJ was 'Euro 6' compliant - but again in the old 'lab tests'. The WLTP programme showed it too had way higher emissions (NOx in this case) so was not really Euro6, although the new WLTP mpg figures proved to be 'about right' - 55mpg in the 4x4. That saw it dropped across the entire Fiat car range (altoough still available in their small vans)

The price list may have shown 90hp TA as there will still stocks to clear, perhaps? Certainly it listed the MJ 4x4 well after May 2018 - but any 'factory order’ would not have had it. I now suspect that any ‘made to order’ 4x4 with TA would only be 85hp if ordered after end May 2018.

Interesting about your VIN plate, as that confirms what's been said here for a while -- this is the only place to check to be sure. We await The Panda Nut's reply about what his data plate says...

Herts Hillhopper said:

The 1.3MJ was dropped from the Panda 4x4 in about May 2018 - .....

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Ah yes that all makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the detailed reply.