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Old 12-05-2017   #31
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Quote Originally Posted by R1NGA View Post
The main reason those early cars were so good in snow and clag was down to light weight - around 700Kg only - and therefore 1/3 tonne lighter than our 312/319 models. And they get lighter still, the longer you keep them unfortunately......
Lol! Ours must have lost several kilos of weight from the bottom of the doors!
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Old 14-05-2017   #32
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Thanks for the info once more...

I was hoping that having a 4wd setup would boast better acceleration grip but it seems this is not the case?

Does anyone know what would happen if you put a higher power engine, say 150 odd bhp through the 4wd system to launch then manually pulled it out of 4wd to continue though the gears?

Would the whole thing collapse or would it stand up to that kind of beating?

Has anyone ever done this?

Vince.
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Old 14-05-2017   #33
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

It's been suggested on here before you could modify a TA 85 Panda with a 105 turbo from a 500 and a rechip. Despite the modest power in the 4x4, it has got traction control. Will kick in if you put the power down with the clutch partly up. Whether the 2wd has it too. The only way is to buy a secondhand one, modify it and find out. Compared to a new 500 105 which I would rather have 2 new Panda 1.2 Easys and some change, but that's me.
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Old 14-05-2017   #34
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Yes, you only need to change, the cylinder head turbo bolt's, the 85 turbo for the 105 turbo and the turbo heat shield, everything else (connections) are plug & play.

The only thing that is also different is the "intercooler" itself on the 105 hp version, but what is different about it, i don't know.

You need a adjusted map to make the 105 hp turbo work compare to the 85 hp map.

With a custom remap you can get the the turbo to work to his full potential and end up with 124 hp.
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Old 14-05-2017   #35
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Quote Originally Posted by The Pretender View Post
Yes, you only need to change, the cylinder head turbo bolt's, the 85 turbo for the 105 turbo and the turbo heat shield, everything else (connections) are plug & play.



The only thing that is also different is the "intercooler" itself on the 105 hp version, but what is different about it, i don't know.



You need a adjusted map to make the 105 hp turbo work compare to the 85 hp map.



With a custom remap you can get the the turbo to work to his full potential and end up with 124 hp.

Has anyone done that put the 105 bhp twin air engine in a Panda 4x4?!? Guess the intercooler will be bigger!!
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Old 14-05-2017   #36
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Quote Originally Posted by Alex4x4 View Post
Has anyone done that put the 105 bhp twin air engine in a Panda 4x4?!? Guess the intercooler will be bigger!!
Not the engine, only a Turbo change.
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Old 14-05-2017   #37
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Quote Originally Posted by VincePrototypeFirefly View Post
Thanks for the info once more...

I was hoping that having a 4wd setup would boast better acceleration grip but it seems this is not the case?

Does anyone know what would happen if you put a higher power engine, say 150 odd bhp through the 4wd system to launch then manually pulled it out of 4wd to continue though the gears?

Would the whole thing collapse or would it stand up to that kind of beating?

Has anyone ever done this?

Vince.
You're probably asking in the wrong forum, the classic Panda forum might return better information.

Though I think the old Panda's selectable 4x4 system wouldn't take much more than it already has.
If you could, any gains would be lost when you tried to deselect the rear axle, which would probably be impossible without slowing down with that sort of load through it. (if it didn't break)

The latest Panda 4x4's with the TA engine has a really low first gear (same as the 169 Climbing), it's really only 1/2 a gear and the change from 1st to 2nd can't be rushed, more power isn't really going to really improve standing starts, in 85hp trim it'll hit the rev limiter before you can even think about changing gear as it is.
(in a standing start, it's the quickest thing on the road over 12 feet!)

I always thought it might be better to start with the Panda Multijet if you fancied boosting power as they produce a lot more torque than the petrol versions.

Turbo diesels usually give bigger gains with a remap and with perhaps a bigger intercooler it wouldn't be too hard to end up with a useful tool if the clutch can stand it!

Probably the best advise would be to save your time, effort and money and buy something else.
I always fancied modding a 225 Audi TT Quattro.
They're cheap enough these days and you don't need too much work on the engine side to hit 250+hp.
Spending the money on sorting the handling would be a must though!
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Last edited by Goudrons; 14-05-2017 at 22:00.
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Old 15-05-2017   #38
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Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
You're probably asking in the wrong forum, the classic Panda forum might return better information.

Though I think the old Panda's selectable 4x4 system wouldn't take much more than it already has.
If you could, any gains would be lost when you tried to deselect the rear axle, which would probably be impossible without slowing down with that sort of load through it. (if it didn't break)

The latest Panda 4x4's with the TA engine has a really low first gear (same as the 169 Climbing), it's really only 1/2 a gear and the change from 1st to 2nd can't be rushed, more power isn't really going to really improve standing starts, in 85hp trim it'll hit the rev limiter before you can even think about changing gear as it is.
(in a standing start, it's the quickest thing on the road over 12 feet!)

I always thought it might be better to start with the Panda Multijet if you fancied boosting power as they produce a lot more torque than the petrol versions.

Turbo diesels usually give bigger gains with a remap and with perhaps a bigger intercooler it wouldn't be too hard to end up with a useful tool if the clutch can stand it!

Probably the best advise would be to save your time, effort and money and buy something else.
I always fancied modding a 225 Audi TT Quattro.
They're cheap enough these days and you don't need too much work on the engine side to hit 250+hp.
Spending the money on sorting the handling would be a must though!
Thank you for your time, it's good to get multiple opinions as someone else has mentioned the 4WD system can take a heavy beating- I guess they were merely pulling my leg.

Funny you should mention the TT- I've been playing with the Mk1 3.2 DSG for a good few years now There'S nothing wrong with how a TT handles, they get far too much stick from bad drivers- the car handles like a dream if you know how to drive it. Still, with any power upgrades, brakes & suspension are a 100% must for where to start.

All the best, Vince.
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Last edited by VincePrototypeFirefly; 15-05-2017 at 06:37.
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Old 16-05-2017   #39
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Disregarding the Audi for a moment (that's a whole different bag of beans)...

Prometeo Meccanica manufacture a heavy duty transfer case and differential sets for both the first and second generation Panda. Coupled with the flywheel and clutch (which they also produce, or which pretty much any flywheel-clutch combo built for modifying the 500 with the same gearbox will also fit), it's entirely possible to get a monster of a little car. Similarly, for example, the world drag record holding Subaru Justy (which has a similarly simple 4x4 system) went through several iterations before it became the beast it is today, but the drivetrain only really started having trouble at around the 250hp mark (when they started breaking axles every 3 races). So realistically, if you wanted a "reliable" and powerful Panda 1st or 2nd gen, you'd need the diffs and cases from Prometeo and probably have to modify or build stronger axles and CV joints.

As for the 4x4 system contributing to acceleration, I can only personally attest to the Panda 312 as that's what I have, but left in "Normal" mode the traction control kicks in quite soon. With the ELD system engaged and the central differential primed, on a wet road, dropping the clutch at around 2000rpm (yes yes, I'm ruining my clutch I know) kicks the little thing violently forward enough that you could easily keep up or out-accelerate a vehicle with rear or front wheel drive with 150-170hp up to about 35mph. Once the traction traction limitations are equalled out (so second gear onward basically) they'll fly by. So in short, it's entirely plausible to build a Super Panda from any generation, but it would depend greatly on how much time and money you'd want to invest on a platform with the aforementioned limitations. If you want a cheap build for a few laughs, and don't mind replacing the clutch and axles every now and then, just throw in as much power in the engine bay as you think it can handle, have fun until something breaks, then upgrade whatever breaks along the way (clutch, diff etc). If you want to have fun that's not only in a straight line, the same folks at Prometeo also make front and rear limited slip and fully locking differentials for gen 1 and 2 Pandas, though they can get pricey.
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Old 16-05-2017   #40
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Quote Originally Posted by oyumurtaci View Post
...but left in "Normal" mode the traction control kicks in quite soon. With the ELD system engaged and the central differential primed, on a wet road, dropping the clutch at around 2000rpm (yes yes, I'm ruining my clutch I know) kicks the little thing violently forward ....
Pressing ELD (or selecting 'offroad' in the Cross) also has an effect on the traction control... the instruction book (now that I've found it :-) says:

The activation of the ELD system involves the following functions being switched on:
  • permanent four-wheel drive, so that the vehicle is more responsive
  • inhibition of the ASR function [traction control], in order to fully exploit the engine torque;
  • differential lock effect on the front and rear axles, via the braking system, to improve drive on uneven surfaces.
It also goes on to explain that if the ELD actually operates, the yellow ELD light will flash on the dash.
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Old 17-05-2017   #41
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

That also reflects my personal experience. With ELD disabled, the traction control light flickers even if some power is sent to the rear to prevent wheelspin, but with ELD engaged I can spin all four wheels simultaneously well through first and second gear in the snow as the yellow ELD light flashes in protest of my shenanigans.
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Old 17-05-2017   #42
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Has anyone else noticed how the traction control (on the Cross, at least) cuts the power for a few seconds after you go over a speed bump?

The 300m driveway into my place of work has no fewer than 5 speed bumps, all no more than 50m apart (it's through a public park, so there are dog-walkers etc). Attempts to sprint between the speed bumps (when its deserted, and I'm late ) are usually thwarted by the TC killing the power. At first I thought it was because the driveway was a bit greasy, but it also happens in the dry. The car just bogs down for 10-15m, even on full throttle, before picking up its skirts. It's nothing to do with being in too high a gear - it happens in 2nd or 3rd. Never had it before on any other car.
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Last edited by gar074; 17-05-2017 at 15:25.
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Old 17-05-2017   #43
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Quote Originally Posted by gar074 View Post
Has anyone else noticed how the traction control (on the Cross, at least) cuts the power for a few seconds after you go over a speed bump?

The 300m driveway into my place of work has no fewer than 5 speed bumps, all no more than 50m apart (it's through a public park, so there are dog-walkers etc). Attempts to sprint between the speed bumps (when its deserted, and I'm late ) are usually thwarted by the TC killing the power. At first I thought it was because the driveway was a bit greasy, but it also happens in the dry. The car just bogs down for 10-15m, even on full throttle, before picking up its skirts. It's nothing to do with being in too high a gear - it happens in 2nd or 3rd. Never had it before on any other car.
Yes! I thought it was just me! If I put even moderate power on as I come off one of the local speed bumps....nothing! Traction Control flashes and no power. Same bump, every time! I assumed it must be something to do with the particular 'bounce' it induced fooling the system into thinking the car's slipping....
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Old 17-05-2017   #44
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Re: Fiat Panda 4x4 system, "How does it work" ?

Thank heavens for that - I thought it was just me!!

In the light of Herts Hillhopper's post earlier today about what the ELD/Off-road setting does, first thing tomorrow I'm attacking those pesky speed bumps in "off-road" setting.

Let battle commence!

PS the fastest I've ever driven over those speed bumps (bearing in mind that I've worked in the same place since 1984!) was in ... my 2CV6.

In the 2CV I didn't even have to slow down to take those pesky speed bumps - it just flew over them, at full chat, engine wailing (and dogs, and their owners, fleeing!) as if on a billiard table.

Progress? What progress!
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Last edited by gar074; 17-05-2017 at 19:16.
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Old 17-05-2017   #45
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Quote Originally Posted by gar074 View Post
Thank heavens for that - I thought it was just me!!

In the light of Herts Hillhopper's post earlier today about what the ELD/Off-road setting does, first thing tomorrow I'm attacking those pesky speed bumps in "off-road" setting.

Let battle commence!

PS the fastest I've ever driven over those speed bumps (bearing in mind that I've worked in the same place since 1984!) was in ... my 2CV6.

In the 2CV I didn't even have to slow down to take those pesky speed bumps - it just flew over them, at full chat, engine wailing (and dogs, and their owners, fleeing!) as if on a billiard table.

Progress? What progress!
Haha! You know you don't have to preach to me of the benefits of the wonderful 2CV, but these Fiat-only types may be confused about suspension that works by wheels waggling about on the ends of curly arms, horizontal springing and dampers that offer supreme ride comfort without actually apparently doing anything at a standstill.....!
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