Where to start? My Daimler era Wrangler needs new cats. Because it's a CARB(California Air Resources Board)version and not a 49 state version, those cats are $1100 more.

I stepped out of the shower just as the curtain rod spring gave up and said curtain rod cold cocked me.

I dreamed I was in my cube at corporate HQ(more of a nightmare even when awake), fell asleep in the cube, spent the night in the building, and no one would let me leave when I woke up.

Cheest said:

Where to start? My Daimler era Wrangler needs new cats. Because it's a CARB(California Air Resources Board)version and not a 49 state version, those cats are $1100 more.

I stepped out of the shower just as the curtain rod spring gave up and said curtain rod cold cocked me.

I dreamed I was in my cube at corporate HQ(more of a nightmare even when awake), fell asleep in the cube, spent the night in the building, and no one would let me leave when I woke up.

Click to expand...

Time to pull a 'sickie' and crawl back under the duvet, pretend today does not exist.

I'm always puzzled about the number of cats that get replaced. They are generally benign things that just keep working, unless they get contaminated or damaged. Is it burning oil? Have you been off-roading and hitting them on stuff?
Over here, cats are sometimes replaced due to poor diagnosis. The pre-cat oxy sensor gives up, the ECU changes the mixture, often to a default, the cat struggles, and the post-cat sensor reports the output as wrong. The cat gets blamed. Misfires or other engine maladies can also cause cat issues. If post-cat sensor reading is wrong, the pre-cat status needs careful consideration before condemning the cat.
Need to ask the garage some searching questions to be certain.

Cheest said:

Where to start? My Daimler era Wrangler needs new cats. Because it's a CARB(California Air Resources Board)version and not a 49 state version, those cats are $1100 more.

I stepped out of the shower just as the curtain rod spring gave up and said curtain rod cold cocked me.

I dreamed I was in my cube at corporate HQ(more of a nightmare even when awake), fell asleep in the cube, spent the night in the building, and no one would let me leave when I woke up.

Click to expand...

California used to be cool, until it got so liberal and polarising about every topic. They seem to come out with arbitrary rules and regulations like that which do nothing but cause hassle and expense to people and companies that live and operate there.


I'd love to see a study on what 'positive impact' such special efforts like having that CARB version made on the environment, as presumably that was why they were made to produce it. I suspect not very much.


It seems that trend in US 60 years ago of people migrating to the west coast because it was the place to be are moving in their droves to Austin, Texas and other parts of the country that offer a more common sense way of life and through our modern problems

portland_bill said:

Time to pull a 'sickie' and crawl back under the duvet, pretend today does not exist.

I'm always puzzled about the number of cats that get replaced. They are generally benign things that just keep working, unless they get contaminated or damaged. Is it burning oil? Have you been off-roading and hitting them on stuff?
Over here, cats are sometimes replaced due to poor diagnosis. The pre-cat oxy sensor gives up, the ECU changes the mixture, often to a default, the cat struggles, and the post-cat sensor reports the output as wrong. The cat gets blamed. Misfires or other engine maladies can also cause cat issues. If post-cat sensor reading is wrong, the pre-cat status needs careful consideration before condemning the cat.
Need to ask the garage some searching questions to be certain.

Click to expand...

My Jeep in a shop? Hahahaha. Burning oil, no. The two front cats hang off the old AMC 4.0L engine so they are well protected. Last time I went off roading was 2017, and then it was just wet stuff. Ames Lake Rd. was more lake than road.

I have a fancy shmancy code tool that gives me live feed graphing, freeze frame and points out which sensor has bit the dust. Bank 2 O2 sensor 2 shows to be lazy but has already been replaced which points to the Bank 2 cat dying. One last thing to try before throwing in the towel is to try tightening the flange bolts but it needs to be just a tad warmer outside.

SB1500 said:

California used to be cool, until it got so liberal and polarising about every topic. They seem to come out with arbitrary rules and regulations like that which do nothing but cause hassle and expense to people and companies that live and operate there.


I'd love to see a study on what 'positive impact' such special efforts like having that CARB version made on the environment, as presumably that was why they were made to produce it. I suspect not very much.

Click to expand...

There was a story a long time ago, possibly late seventies, when Volvo objected to the then stiffer emission proposals, proving that what was coming out of their exhausts was already cleaner than that going in.

Somewhere in the distant past, I was intrigued by a quote from a captain's log, can't remember which, but was a famous explorer back when we had wooden sailing ships. It said something along the lines of, 'approaching San Francisco bay, the land was cloaked in a thick yellow mist'. Back then I doubt that was caused by cars. Seems geography/topology/air flow, etc., draws pollution to the west coast. Cars may add to that, but do not cause it.

Cheest said:

My Jeep in a shop? Hahahaha. Burning oil, no. The two front cats hang off the old AMC 4.0L engine so they are well protected. Last time I went off roading was 2017, and then it was just wet stuff. Ames Lake Rd. was more lake than road.

I have a fancy shmancy code tool that gives me live feed graphing, freeze frame and points out which sensor has bit the dust. Bank 2 O2 sensor 2 shows to be lazy but has already been replaced which points to the Bank 2 cat dying. One last thing to try before throwing in the towel is to try tightening the flange bolts but it needs to be just a tad warmer outside.

Click to expand...

An air leak into the exhaust will cause problems with cat output readings. If there is any chance of a leak, fit new gaskets, don't just tighten the bolts. If the nuts are brass (hopefully), get new ones, as they do not like being used several times, and object to tightening too much.
Look forward to a happy day, upside down, swearing at inaccessible seized nuts. Always a joy.

SB1500 said:

California used to be cool, until it got so liberal and polarising about every topic. They seem to come out with arbitrary rules and regulations like that which do nothing but cause hassle and expense to people and companies that live and operate there.

Click to expand...

IMO, there is liberal and there is California. I'm a bald headed old hippy and consider myself a left of center enigma. Yet, I can only tolerate San Francisco for 5 days before I've had enough. LA only rates three. I was once stuck in LA for two weeks. I spent the middle weekend in Baja to regain my sanity.

portland_bill said:

There was a story a long time ago, possibly late seventies, when Volvo objected to the then stiffer emission proposals, proving that what was coming out of their exhausts was already cleaner than that going in.

Somewhere in the distant past, I was intrigued by a quote from a captain's log, can't remember which, but was a famous explorer back when we had wooden sailing ships. It said something along the lines of, 'approaching San Francisco bay, the land was cloaked in a thick yellow mist'. Back then I doubt that was caused by cars. Seems geography/topology/air flow, etc., draws pollution to the west coast. Cars may add to that, but do not cause it.


An air leak into the exhaust will cause problems with cat output readings. If there is any chance of a leak, fit new gaskets, don't just tighten the bolts. If the nuts are brass (hopefully), get new ones, as they do not like being used several times, and object to tightening too much.
Look forward to a happy day, upside down, swearing at inaccessible seized nuts. Always a joy.

Click to expand...

We're already on our way to reversing the past 60 years of 'environmental abuse' we've caused to the planet. About the only actual area where we really are doing a bad job is with the ocean, sadly.

A lot of the hot topics in the 90s about the planet have since been proven, still an issue, but not as drastic or difficult to solve than was spread at the time. It's such a fast changing area of study because we're learning so much all the time.

But I am positive about it and wouldn't doubt for a second that we can't solve it and make things sustainable

portland_bill said:

An air leak into the exhaust will cause problems with cat output readings. If there is any chance of a leak, fit new gaskets, don't just tighten the bolts. If the nuts are brass (hopefully), get new ones, as they do not like being used several times, and object to tightening too much.
Look forward to a happy day, upside down, swearing at inaccessible seized nuts. Always a joy.

Click to expand...

I'm crossing my fingers before I go for the rust in the face. Besides the PO431 cat code, I got a PO300(multiply cylinder misfires. always a fun one)just this weekend. Ran fine unless I floored it or didn't downshift uphill. Put in new NGK plugs Sunday, cleared the codes, and it got worse. PO300 came back. I was just about empty on the tank so I gassed up and dumped in a bottle of injector cleaner for fun. No more miss in less than a mile. Cleared the code and had no pending PO431, either. Been about 100 miles and no codes yet. Maybe it was a couple of failing plugs.

I tried to check my brakes yesterday, got the wheel off this time (having educated myself to the high standard of knowing how to remove the bolt covers - off which one is missing since new tyres, Grump 1).


When I got the car jacked up and the bolts off, the alloy was seized on. Sort of expected that, though hoped it wouldn't be too badly stuck with the wheels having been off last week for the new tyres... Nope, siezed.


So I tried a bit of kicking the edges. Nope.

Got a bit of wood and a hammer, gave it a few careful bashes. Nope.


Didn't get the wheel off. (Grump 2)


DID chip the alloy with the wrench as it spun to remove the bolts (Grump 3)


I will persevere tonight up at the garage with the help of my uncle. I'm sure we'll get the wheels off, BUT what am I to do if I ever end up at the road side with a flat?

Take all the bolts out and drive it around, it'll come off.

Whilst being able to change a wheel is good, having breakdown membership is worthwhile so you don't have to, especially if it is cold and wet, and dark.

SB1500 said:

I tried to check my brakes yesterday, got the wheel off this time (having educated myself to the high standard of knowing how to remove the bolt covers - off which one is missing since new tyres, Grump 1).


When I got the car jacked up and the bolts off, the alloy was seized on. Sort of expected that, though hoped it wouldn't be too badly stuck with the wheels having been off last week for the new tyres... Nope, siezed.


So I tried a bit of kicking the edges. Nope.

Got a bit of wood and a hammer, gave it a few careful bashes. Nope.


Didn't get the wheel off. (Grump 2)


DID chip the alloy with the wrench as it spun to remove the bolts (Grump 3)


I will persevere tonight up at the garage with the help of my uncle. I'm sure we'll get the wheels off, BUT what am I to do if I ever end up at the road side with a flat?

Click to expand...

A wee tip for removing stuck wheels. Slacken off wheel bolts enough so the wheel can be slackened when driving car back and forth. Simple. When replacing wheels use some copper slip or similar.

How loose are we talking for the bolts? That crossed my mind, but I could picture myself with bent bolts, a crushed alloy and ruined disc that hit the ground :idea:

SB1500 said:

How loose are we talking for the bolts? That crossed my mind, but I could picture myself with bent bolts, a crushed alloy and ruined disc that hit the ground :idea:

Click to expand...

Tighten all 4.. just 'nipped' not torqued

Then back 1 turn of EACH BOLT

the bolt will normally have @8 turns inserted..

Check that for yourself.. do let us know

Walking pace.. just back and forth

As people said.. it is corrosion 'between dissimilar metals' that is grabbing the alloys mounting face

Coppergrease will stop that..

Weirdly my 2012 punto has not been an issue with this..

Do you pressure wash the hub area?
(I dont..)

SB1500 said:

I will persevere tonight up at the garage with the help of my uncle. I'm sure we'll get the wheels off, BUT what am I to do if I ever end up at the road side with a flat?

Click to expand...

Ring your breakdown provider and be thankful that the 1st owner of your DS3 included the optional spare. I am aware I'm assuming you have breakdown cover..but you've got a Citroën you must have .

We paid for our spare in the DS3, was standard on the C3 oddly..though only on Top spec. Strange that top spec provides something useful rather than 10 colours of led mood lighting.

varesecrazy said:

Do you pressure wash the hub area?
(I dont..)

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I haven't pressure washed any of the cars I've had, firstly due to not even having a hose or the money to invest in one, but now because it seems too sore on the paintwork. I'm sure I could get away with it on this newer car, but the hose seems to do a fine job.

StevenRB45 said:

Ring your breakdown provider and be thankful that the 1st owner of your DS3 included the optional spare. I am aware I'm assuming you have breakdown cover..but you've got a Citroën you must have .

We paid for our spare in the DS3, was standard on the C3 oddly..though only on Top spec. Strange that top spec provides something useful rather than 10 colours of led mood lighting.

Click to expand...

Breakdown provider?! I guess I'd need to get one then!!! Lol It was always so easy on the Panda, such a small easy to handle wheel! Those days are gone (I bet there's a million posts from me on here laughing at people in my predicament right now!) lol


Always thought it'd be a very good thing to be able to do, say in front of your friends or a girl to be able to get yourself and them out of a mess such as a flat tyre - really knowing your stuff. Sadly things like that, being able to cook and managing your money well isn't impressive anymore now, it's all about what Audi you drive, what gym you go to and how many instagram followers you've got ... All of which are arena's I'm not in lol


I used to laugh at my friend with the i30N (when he had the i40) waiting for 4 hours on a trip in England for breakdown cover to come out and fix a headlight bulb on a motorway when he could have just went to a service station and read the manual and done it himself I guess I'll have to become one of him!!!

...least it'll stop me being in the situation this unfortunate man was..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq6rpVMcyas

I get breakdown free from work.. oddly working for a company that provides it has to have some benefits.

Not actually called them in years, think last time was a flat battery on my Suzuki.

I know how to change a wheel if I had to and have many times in the past but if you literally can't get the wheels off then probably a good idea to have breakdown.

Either that or take it to a garage get them to remove all 4 and put grease/copper slip over the mounting points so they don't stick again (as others have suggested). Thought you'd just had new tyres though so very odd they'd be corroded on in less than a month.

StevenRB45 said:

I get breakdown free from work.. oddly working for a company that provides it has to have some benefits.

Not actually called them in years, think last time was a flat battery on my Suzuki.

I know how to change a wheel if I had to and have many times in the past but if you literally can't get the wheels off then probably a good idea to have breakdown.

Either that or take it to a garage get them to remove all 4 and put grease/copper slip over the mounting points so they don't stick again (as others have suggested). Thought you'd just had new tyres though so very odd they'd be corroded on in less than a month.

Click to expand...

That was my logic in checking them this week, a week after having new tyres fitted, but they were stuck alright.


I got one off last night, discs are 16mm instead of 22mm (the smallest thickness of new discs apparently) if I got the workings right.


I think I'll get the new parts and when I fit them I'll copper grease all four alloys to hopefully get them off in the future. I replaced the wheel on the Panda at a roadside once and I'd like to do it again if the situation demands

StevenRB45 said:

I know how to change a wheel if I had to and have many times in the past but if you literally can't get the wheels off then probably a good idea to have breakdown.

Click to expand...

These days they say it’s better to have breakdown cover even if it’s for a flat tyre as it can be extremely dangerous to change your own flat tyre on the side of the road these days especially on motorways, where you could get your arse swiped by a lorry doing 60 while you’re wrestling to undo some wheel bolts

You'll have to get a proper Citroen DS. You may already know but its properly clever.
Set car to highest suspension setting
Put the support leg (it's not a jack) into the sill centre hole.
Drop the car down and both wheels on supported side lift off the road.
The back wheel arch "wing" is attached to the car by a big captive bolt the same size as a wheel nut so it's easy to remove to reach the lifted back wheel.
The car can be driven with one back wheel removed, though that's probably illegal on UK roads.

AndyRKett said:

These days they say it’s better to have breakdown cover even if it’s for a flat tyre as it can be extremely dangerous to change your own flat tyre on the side of the road these days especially on motorways, where you could get your arse swiped by a lorry doing 60 while you’re wrestling to undo some wheel bolts

Click to expand...

Agree, it's dangerous enough doing it with a van at your back with it's own lightshow never mind on your own with your back to the traffic and a set of hazard lights and a white line between here and eternity. Especially in the dark as people follow the lights of the car in front.. even if it's stationary on occasion.

That's before we get to breaking down in the live lane of a smart motorway.