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Old 10-10-2019   #1
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Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Hey guys.

I'm just having a nose around in my car grande punto 1.4 tjet 2009 and I want to know if my timing belt has too much or too little tension. Is there away to test? I've done a video (see link below).

Should I start it up with the upper timing belt cover off and see what's going on or is that a big no no not to have it covered?

Any ideas be great. Currently looking at it as we speak so feel free tonal me to check things

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Old 11-10-2019   #2
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Definitely too loose IMO, and you shouldn't be able to "recenter" hit as it should not slip onto the pulley. So either you belt has wrong teeth number or has stretched or the tensionner is "out" ...

BRs, Bernie

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Old 11-10-2019   #3
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Quote Originally Posted by Bernievarian View Post
Definitely too loose IMO, and you shouldn't be able to "recenter" hit as it should not slip onto the pulley. So either you belt has wrong teeth number or has stretched or the tensionner is "out" ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)
Hey Berne / Guys (sorry 4 length but feeling abit trapped)

I was hoping someone could share some ideas and thoughts of where to o next. I was tinkering on my car feeling like a burley man yesterday and now feel like a boy due to this timing belt issue. So the story is in April 2018, I had a full timing kit done, Belt, Tensioner, Water pump at my local garage and car had 10k miles, it is now Oct 2019 and it has 12k miles. Upon seeing your response and that the belt had moved to the edge of the CAM pulley abit, seems that this job wasn't done fully right i.e not tension-ed or never used the correct timing tools (which they did say they had)

What do i do next? - They garage will probably look at it, but Do i trust them to do it right if they didn't do it first time? Even if they have the tools there no guarantee they will use them.

My local Fiat (a Stoneacre based in willenhall) - You would assume these will have and use the correct tools, but over the last 5 years where I have had to use them for odd jobs something has always gone wrong. So my confidence is shot with garages /dealers hence why were DIY mechanics.

Do it myself? -I know it is a big job and people say "only do it if your confident" but that always has me on the fence, As i consider myself a very competent DIY but yes I have never done a timing belt b4. I really want to get to that level of where i can do timing belts, timing chains, headgastkets but always struggle with how to get there if your not a mechanic and not messing up your own car?

Feeling alittle deflated right now, as Feel if I shouldn't even drive my car of worry of belt slipping off and causing mass damage. Any suggestions / thoughts would be great .
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Old 11-10-2019   #4
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

I'd give it a go !!
What is your engine again ? I know it's 1.4 petrol bit 8 or 16 V ?? I could collect the procedure in eLearn if you like ...

BRs, Bernie

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Old 11-10-2019   #5
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Quote Originally Posted by Bernievarian View Post
I'd give it a go !!
What is your engine again ? I know it's 1.4 petrol bit 8 or 16 V ?? I could collect the procedure in eLearn if you like ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)
Hey Berne,

Thanks for the help, My vehicle is actually the Grande punto 1.4 tjet
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Old 11-10-2019   #6
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Hi Emerson,

just re read your video: I WOULD NOT RUN THIS ENGINE ANYMORE !!

- install car on candles
- remove right wheel an inner plastics
- jack-up (just to hold it) your engine, pulley side
- remove the front engine support (pulley side)
- remove the lower belt-cover

This was about 1/2h easy job and you can now inspect HOW the tensionner has been set and correct it if necessary. If all was well set, then either the tensionner is dead (broken spring) or the belt has elongated/was wrong length ...

BRs, Bernie

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Attached Thumbnails
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Name:	Belt tensioner 1.2 8V 1.4 8V 16V.jpg
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ID:	203631  
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Last edited by Bernievarian; 11-10-2019 at 12:40.
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Old 11-10-2019   #7
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Quote Originally Posted by Bernievarian View Post
Hi Emerson,

just re read your video: I WOULD NOT RUN THIS ENGINE ANYMORE !!

- install car on candles
- remove right wheel an inner plastics
- jack-up (just to hold it) your engine, pulley side
- remove the front engine support (pulley side)
- remove the lower belt-cover

This was about 1/2h easy job and you can now inspect HOW the tensionner has been set and correct it if necessary. If all was well set, then either the tensionner is dead (broken spring) or the belt has elongated/was wrong length ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)
Thanks for the infor berne, got a few questions for you, so hopefully you dont mind, I just got to finish up at work, so should be on later today / this evening with questions after ive done some research and taken some pictures of things. Thanks again really appreciate you taking time
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Old 11-10-2019   #8
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Hi Everson,

did some search and found eLearn iso file specific for the 1.4 Tjet engine :-)) It's for the Bravo but doesn't matter if you look at engine stuff only ...

- open link below
- copy the providen address
- paste it in your browser
- the download might fail with some warning, click download anyway
- once downloaded, right click the .rar file and extract it to a specific folder you created
- you'll have to enter the password (cardiagn.com)
- "mount" the file (right click on the extracted .iso)
- run "setup" from the "CD"
- enjoy ...

https://cardiagn.com/elearn-fiat-bra...e-car-service/

BRs, Bernie

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Last edited by Bernievarian; 11-10-2019 at 13:48.
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Old 11-10-2019   #9
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Talking Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Quote Originally Posted by Bernievarian View Post
Hi Everson,

did some search and found eLearn iso file specific for the 1.4 Tjet engine :-)) It's for the Bravo but doesn't matter if you look at engine stuff only ...

- open link below
- copy the providen address
- paste it in your browser
- the download might fail with some warning, click download anyway
- once downloaded, right click the .rar file and extract it to a specific folder you created
- you'll have to enter the password (cardiagn.com)
- "mount" the file (right click on the extracted .iso)
- run "setup" from the "CD"
- enjoy ...

https://cardiagn.com/elearn-fiat-bra...e-car-service/

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)
Hey Berne,

thanks for providing this. I going to try keep things clear and succinct, as I try use this as a one stop shop of knowledge for myself and help me decide what my next plan is regards to doing work. My first set of questions:

1) You said for me not to use my car anymore - was there something drastic in my video that made you think this, just cause manoeuvring my car around to POTENTIALLY do the work myself will be hard as i share a driveway, so cannot take the micky hogging the space (for yourself it may take 1 - 2 hours but 4 me will be a few days lol) you cannot turn the steering wheel with car not running.

2) Is the elearn bravo tjet same as the GP Tjet elearn - Not sure if you remember but there is a GP online tjet learning resource, here is a link to the timing belt section for GP: https://bit.ly/2M5fmT7, that is the same as the bravo tjet elearn right? Also i have noticed when reading the GP tjet elarn source, when stating the validity of the work it says its for a 1.4 16v? Does this matter are the 1.4 16v same engine / procedure as the 1.4 Tjet.


3) Do I have another problem first? - Not sure if you remember but i did a thread about getting a vibration / judder in my seat when my engine was up to temp: line here - https://bit.ly/3187Dbg . Someone mentioned about a worn engine mount which up inspection it does look fine, but today i was reading another thread about timing belt change and turns out this person took there car to be done and Arnold Clark stripped the threads on their engine mount and seems to be common (link here: https://bit.ly/2OF81LD ) , so thinking maybe this has happened to me, causing judder (but I do have to say it hasn't done it for awhile) if so whats a good safe way to check stripped bolts of an engine mount I may have another issue of getting the garage to own up to this.

4) Do you / anyone know of any other vehicles that share a similar engine to the tjet. As i am a visual person and always start with some youtube, but of course no one has a GP TJET timing belt change on there, but trying to deduce a similar set up vehicle.

Thanks again,honestly appreciate your extra yourself has done and others for that fact
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Old 11-10-2019   #10
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

The timing belt procedure is the same for bravo, grande abarth, abarth 500, mito tjet. They all share the same timing tools. Only difference is room and airbox/pipework etc. But identical in the belt procedure.

The tensioner tool makes it a lot easier than trying with circlip pliers. And if you lock the cam and crank you can't go wrong where as paint marking has the potential to be slightly out.

Leave water pump to go off for 24 hours to be sure the sealer has fully dried as there is no gasket.

I would highly recommend slacking off the cam pulley bolt which makes it easier to pull the belt round, which start from the crank, go up to the water pump, round the cam pulley and have the slack tensioner side.

Tension pulley, then torque cam pulley bolt last (cam pulley is floating type so cam will not move as its locked in). You will need a locking tool to hold pulley and torque wrench to tighten) Turn engine over twice after removing locking tools, then make sure locking tools fit back in correctly.

I have marked in yellow where the tensioner needs to align (if the picture uploads ok)Click image for larger version

Name:	20191010_154356.jpeg
Views:	37
Size:	77.5 KB
ID:	203664Click image for larger version

Name:	20190913_154315.jpeg
Views:	52
Size:	143.6 KB
ID:	203665
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Old 11-10-2019   #11
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Quote Originally Posted by Boostjunkeee View Post
The timing belt procedure is the same for bravo, grande abarth, abarth 500, mito tjet. They all share the same timing tools. Only difference is room and airbox/pipework etc. But identical in the belt procedure.

The tensioner tool makes it a lot easier than trying with circlip pliers. And if you lock the cam and crank you can't go wrong where as paint marking has the potential to be slightly out.

Leave water pump to go off for 24 hours to be sure the sealer has fully dried as there is no gasket.

I would highly recommend slacking off the cam pulley bolt which makes it easier to pull the belt round, which start from the crank, go up to the water pump, round the cam pulley and have the slack tensioner side.

Tension pulley, then torque cam pulley bolt last (cam pulley is floating type so cam will not move as its locked in). You will need a locking tool to hold pulley and torque wrench to tighten) Turn engine over twice after removing locking tools, then make sure locking tools fit back in correctly.

I have marked in yellow where the tensioner needs to align (if the picture uploads ok)Attachment 203664Attachment 203665
Hey Boost
Thanks for this . I've got a few.more questions but I'm a little burnt out so will post them tomo as need to out car back together and then try to move my vehicle on drive without turning over the engine . But do feel better from speaking with yourself / pics and Berne. So I'll do more research and gauge up any other things.
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Old 12-10-2019   #12
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Quote Originally Posted by everson38 View Post

1) You said for me not to use my car anymore ...

your belt is very sloppy, run engine the least you can ...

2) Is the elearn bravo tjet same as the GP Tjet elearn ...

I guess so; all Tjets are 16V, NOT all 16V are Tjets !

3) Do I have another problem first? ...

You' have to dismount the support anyway so you can check the threads

4) Do you / anyone know of any other vehicles that share a similar engine to the tjet ...

I'd have a look at Opel / Vauxhall since GM uses the same engines as Fiat (and Alfa for some of them)

Thanks again,honestly appreciate your extra yourself has done and others for that fact
Answers in the text...
Regards, Bernie
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Old 13-10-2019   #13
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Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Others on here have said pretty much everything I can think of to mention. Seeing how loose your belt is I would be betting on either the spring in the tensioner being broken or the securing nut having slackened or not been tightened properly in the first place. (there are other scenarios, but that's what I would look at first. You are right to question whether you should be able to move the belt back onto that top pulley. Normally it would be so tight as to make this almost impossible. By the way, where the belt runs (front to back positioning) on the pulley is directly controlled by the flanges on the water pump - not something you can "adjust" (unless you start putting thick gaskets under the water pump flange but why would you?). The belts on both my (non VVT) Panda 1.2 and my boy's Punto 1.4 (with VVT) run well towards the back of the top pulley (by that I mean the front of the "teeth" are uncovered and the belt runs pretty much flush with the back of the pulley.

I'm in agreement that it's not advisable to run the engine although it's amazing how slack a belt can be before it will actually jump the pulley teeth. Look at this:


Personally, as has been advised above, I would jack her up and support on axle stands, jack with bit of wood on the saddle under the sump - to spread the load, I use a thich piece of marine ply - and remove the engine mount, remove the aux belt and front timing belt covers and have a look at that tensioner. From what I can see of the belt it doesn't look to be in too bad a condition but if it's been running like this for long it might be wise to fit a new belt.

This video may give you some idea of what is involved in changing a belt by the "DIY" method. It's a later model version with the VVT top pulley but the overall procedure is the same.


There is also an excellent guide, by Andy Monty, to the 8 valve engine in the GP Guides section which again gives you a good flavour of what to expect.

Hope some of that is helpful. In terms of difficulty these belts are at "easier" end of the spectrum to do. However you do need to feel confident about what you are doing because there is always the possibility of things going "pear shaped" if you get it wrong. If you do have a go yourself, and if you are a competent DIYer I would encourage you to have a go, when you've got everything back together and before you go anywhere near the starter switch, Take the plugs out if you haven't already done so (this makes it possible to really "feel" any obstruction) and very slowly and gently, with a spanner or socket on the crank pulley bolt, turn the engine over for two full revolutions. If a piston is going to contact a valve head (because you've got something timed up wrongly) you will feel the engine come to a sudden stop. Do not turn the crank at any speed at all as the flywheel will store enough energy, even at a moderate speed, to slightly bend a valve - then it's game over - head off - etc.

Above all have fun and enjoy what you're doing. Good luck
Jock
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Old 13-10-2019   #14
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Talking Re: Timing Belt- Too tight or too loose?

Quote Originally Posted by Pugglt Auld Jock View Post
Others on here have said pretty much everything I can think of to mention. Seeing how loose your belt is I would be betting on either the spring in the tensioner being broken or the securing nut having slackened or not been tightened properly in the first place. (there are other scenarios, but that's what I would look at first. You are right to question whether you should be able to move the belt back onto that top pulley. Normally it would be so tight as to make this almost impossible. By the way, where the belt runs (front to back positioning) on the pulley is directly controlled by the flanges on the water pump - not something you can "adjust" (unless you start putting thick gaskets under the water pump flange but why would you?). The belts on both my (non VVT) Panda 1.2 and my boy's Punto 1.4 (with VVT) run well towards the back of the top pulley (by that I mean the front of the "teeth" are uncovered and the belt runs pretty much flush with the back of the pulley.

I'm in agreement that it's not advisable to run the engine although it's amazing how slack a belt can be before it will actually jump the pulley teeth. Look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eckMV2adxU

Personally, as has been advised above, I would jack her up and support on axle stands, jack with bit of wood on the saddle under the sump - to spread the load, I use a thich piece of marine ply - and remove the engine mount, remove the aux belt and front timing belt covers and have a look at that tensioner. From what I can see of the belt it doesn't look to be in too bad a condition but if it's been running like this for long it might be wise to fit a new belt.

This video may give you some idea of what is involved in changing a belt by the "DIY" method. It's a later model version with the VVT top pulley but the overall procedure is the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3bBaYhvfEw

There is also an excellent guide, by Andy Monty, to the 8 valve engine in the GP Guides section which again gives you a good flavour of what to expect.

Hope some of that is helpful. In terms of difficulty these belts are at "easier" end of the spectrum to do. However you do need to feel confident about what you are doing because there is always the possibility of things going "pear shaped" if you get it wrong. If you do have a go yourself, and if you are a competent DIYer I would encourage you to have a go, when you've got everything back together and before you go anywhere near the starter switch, Take the plugs out if you haven't already done so (this makes it possible to really "feel" any obstruction) and very slowly and gently, with a spanner or socket on the crank pulley bolt, turn the engine over for two full revolutions. If a piston is going to contact a valve head (because you've got something timed up wrongly) you will feel the engine come to a sudden stop. Do not turn the crank at any speed at all as the flywheel will store enough energy, even at a moderate speed, to slightly bend a valve - then it's game over - head off - etc.

Above all have fun and enjoy what you're doing. Good luck
Jock

Hey jock,

Thanks for this information, really has helped, I am about to do a post that I am hoping to get everyones eye to cast of as it will be in 2 sections, first section confirming my write up of the process in my own head / using youtube vid (which u provided but i saw a few days ago) with theonline elearn source - Just to confirm if I have the steps right in my head. Second section will be a video me addressing some things about whether you need to certain things or not. In regards to my current "loose" timing belt, i got a full cam belt kit done August 2018, in that time it has only done 2k miles on it, but if I do do the job I will belt and tensioner anyway for the Dayco one thats on there now. (That was so everyone has picture of what the timing belt has done etc).

Thanks again and look out for posts to come, but you lot are really helping my confidence with the process
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Old 13-10-2019   #15
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Talking Re: Timing Belt - Too tight or too loose?

Hey Guys, so i've come back and done some research and am feeling about 65% confident (at the moment). What I am going to do is a 2 part Section post: First will be listing the steps of a Timing belt change (from the engine mount removal) in my own words / steps on how i would / plan to carry it out from using this Youtube Video: https://bit.ly/35s6pLl & also reading of the Tjet Elearn write up (https://bit.ly/2M5fmT7). If you could watch the youtube vid and tell me if that is correct (pretty much) as that has been a good step by step video but want to be sure im following a correct-ish one. Second Section: Will be leaving a marker next to specific steps I have listed and marking them in GREEN with the word 'Help', this will be followed up by my own video that is asking a few questions on this specific section that I am unsure of / whether all the steps are needed or not and could with some added elaboration.

Apologies for the work i'm asking you guys to do but, if I am right then I do think im going ahead with it and then I owe you drinks all round lol.

SECTION 1: The Steps (My interpretation)

1) Remove Auxiliary belt .

2) Insert Pin Lock that is somewhere on gearbox to hold Crank pulley .

3) Remove the Crank Pulley - HELP (regarding ratchet vs impact / pin breakage : see video).

4) Remove belts covers / wiring & support engine via sump with wood

5) remove engine mount.

6) Fit CRANK shaft pulley locking tool at crank and then also into this long threaded shaft coming off the engine: HELP - Also links with STEP 8 (see vid below).

7) Remove CAM shaft protective plug, inlet side (back of engine)

8) Rotate crank shaft in clockwise direction, then insert CAM shaft timing tool into inlet side (think its a stubby little nub type tool: HELP (see vid).

9) Add tippex marks on CAM sprocket that align onto engine block (added insurance I guess? ).

10) Loosen the 13mm Tensioner nut, remove belt and remove tensioner

11) Refit NEW tensioner, do up 13mm nut but only finger tight.

12) HERE IS WHERE IM REALLY NOT SURE BUT ITS ON ELEARN (https://bit.ly/2M5fmT7) , The First point under 'refitting': Remove the spark plugs for cylinder 1 & 2, insert these long thin tools into cylinder 1 & 2 and torque to 5Nm, Rotate Crank slowly until pins line up with each other.HELP: (see vid).

13) Fit CAM sprocket counter moving tool (i believe is this square little block with a point on the end) to hold pulley in place.

14) Slighty slacken the CAM shaft pulley bolt - how much should I slacken and why is this point needed?

15) Remove CAM pulley locking tool and compare new to old timing belt and then fit new belt working from Crank - Water pump - Cam pulley.

16) Check tippex marks are still aligned.

17) Tension the Adjuster - Turn anticlockwise with tool until the grooves align , then "lock" into place with 13mm spanner by turning it clockwise to 22Nm -27Nm : HELP (see vid - How should this be situated on its locating pin? I address my concerns about tensioner at start of the video).

18) Refit CAM sprocket counter moving tool (little square block) and torque the CAM retaining bolt to 108Nm - 132nm and then remove CAM counter moving tool.

19) CHECK ALL MARKS ALIGN AGAIN and remove crank locking tool, CAM shaft timing tool (in back of engine inlet side), remove Cam sprocket counter move tool.

20) Turn the engine 6 revolutions SLOWLY via the crank clockwise using a 1/2" ratchet. HELP. How should it feel? Should there be compression?

21) Refit the Crank locking tool, with the crank locking tool in, the tippex marks should align also - Is there anything else that you can use for a point of reference for aligning, is there marks on the crank somewhere? If all aligns the TIMING IS ALL OK.

22) Refit crank pulley and bolts : HELP: How do you torque these down? I assume via putting in a locking pin, but I saw on a youtube video:https://bit.ly/2nGVexf @ 36m 39 secs he was using a pin and then it broke inside? Better to impact them down? but I do prefer torque things correctly.

23) Refit drive belt.

24) To Avoid putting thing back together, only to have to take them off again if something wrong. Are you able to put back on drive belt but leave air filter off and test it before hand or will that causing some issues? Or shall I just fulyl assemble back and test it running that way.

Thats my take on it guys, so if you could get the steps a read through first and then watch my video and then respond so that I know you have full picture. Thanks guys taken me an hour and 30 just to write this lol

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Last edited by everson38; 13-10-2019 at 16:18.
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