Bernievarian said:

You did it right Jock by bleeding the system first, so I don't really understand why you jumped to the master cylinder job, which by the way is describbed in eLearn as a "funny" one ! (2nd lesson: RTFM first)

Best regards, Bernie.

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Thanks very much for the kind words Bernie - much appreciated.

So, for your delectation, my diagnostic thought processes went something like this:-

1) Poor soft feeling pedal with long throw before anything happens - Simple, felt it many times before, probably air in the system so bleed it out. Of course if that had resulted in a much improved pedal then an investigation would need to be made into where the air was getting in! I last drove the car around 9 months previously and it had been fine then.

2) Surprisingly absolutely no change in pedal action at all! What's going on? Ok, complete examination of system undertaken. No leaks on pipework anywhere and all pipes look fine. Next crawl about in the drivers footwell with a very bright Cree lamp to examine the back end of the master cylinder and push rod/pedal etc. All ok not the slightest sign of physical damage or leaking fluid. So onwards to the slave cylinder. Pulled back the convoluted gator. Nice and clean looking but a very very small dampness is noticed - nothing you could call a leak though. No actual liquid fluid running about. Next got Mrs J to operate the pedal whist I observed then compared to our 1.2 Panda and it's immediately obvious that the Punto's cylinder stroke is noticeably shorter than the Panda. The setup is virtually identical on these two cars so I just knew this wasn't right. At this point perhaps I should have tried clamping off the flex hose and seeing how the pedal behaved. If it had given a good "hard" pedal it might have stopped me going of at a tangent suspecting the "thingy" (still want to know what it does and how it works) but I'm not sure if it would prove there still wasn't a problem related to the performance of the m/cyl over the full length of it's stroke - for instance if there was a problem with the relationship of seals to recuperating port etc?

3) So now we come to my dodgy conclusions. It has to be said that renewing the clutch itself was not helpful in diagnosing anything to do with the actuating mechanism. I was just "lucky" to find that the clutch was actually well worn (deeply grooved ends on the diaphragm fingers where the release bearing makes contact and a driven plate which was near the end of it's life. It would have required replacing soon but had no impact at this time on clutch operation. Anyway, given that replacing the actual clutch itself was a red herring in terms of diagnosing the actuation problem, My reasoning went: a) All bled through and no air expelled after running maybe 2/3 of a litre of fluid through. b) No leaks of any consequence and no physical damage observed anywhere. c) Slave cylinder "throw" and thus release lever movement much reduced although the pedal/master cylinder is moving over it's full stroke (ie nothing, like mats, carpets, etc limiting pedal throw.

Just has to be something obscure gone wrong inside the master cylinder doesn't it? better renew the master cylinder.

So that was my thinking. I'm a little consoled by the fact that having failed to manage to fit the master cylinder and handing it over to the garage who did a splendid job but still ended up with no improvement, - remember this was before the clutch itself was replaced - They then reached the conclusion, after working on it and subsequently power bleeding it with no improvement at all, that it was probably the clutch itself at fault. So they themselves did not suspect the slave at that time. Even now, with the old slave cylinder sitting on my workbench with it's gator pulled back, I can still actually see no reason as to why it was behaving as it was.

Ah well, You learn a little every day. Eh?

Stay safe all you lovely people
Jock.

Since you have a new master cylinder fitted as well as a slave, strip the master down ( if it can be ) and check the seals and if there is a tiny tiny tiny hole just past the large fluid hole, the recouperating or by pass port, which may be blocked??

puntodad19 said:

Since you have a new master cylinder fitted as well as a slave, strip the master down ( if it can be ) and check the seals and if there is a tiny tiny tiny hole just past the large fluid hole, the recouperating or by pass port, which may be blocked??

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excellent suggestion, thanks. Unfortunately, as the garage ended up doing the job the old cylinder is probably in their scrap bin by now - it was done a week ago - They've been so nice to me and I've been in and out, in and out, so many times I don't really want to be any more of a nuisance to them so think I'll just leave it.

puntodad19 said:

Since you have a new master cylinder fitted as well as a slave, strip the master down ( if it can be ) and check the seals and if there is a tiny tiny tiny hole just past the large fluid hole, the recouperating or by pass port, which may be blocked??

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I believe Jock said there has not been any improvement with the master cylinder changed, so the old one should have been ok ...

BRs, Bernie

Well worth getting the old unit and having a looksee.......

Absolutely Bernie. It was definitely changing the slave which "sorted" it. The symptoms led me to misdiagnosed the master cylinder. I've wasted my money on that (although who knows how long it might have gone on working for with the slave having failed for no obvious reason than old age. The same goes for the clutch itself (cover assembly, driven plate and release bearing). There was actually nothing "wrong" with it which would have caused the symptoms so again misdiagnosed. Oh dear, what a sorry state of affairs! On the other hand we found the diaphragm fingers very worn by the release bearing and the driven plate near the end of it's life. This has actually been quite fortuitous as my boy is soon hoping to be taking up a new job which has antisocial shift working so a reliable car to get to his work when regular busses are not running is going to be paramount. I think it's also a sound investment as, once that sump is renewed, a job I should manage myself as no heavy lifting is required, I'm not aware of any other serious issues with the car. The only real downside is I've paid for it and, being the soft hearted "mug" I am, I'll probably never fully recover the cost from him! Ah well, as someone else said very recently "that's what Dads are for" isn't it?

Hi! Hope you don't mind me writing here, just wanted to see if I could solve my problem with the clutch, which is similar to yours.

Mine is a 2014 Doblo, but it has the same hydraulic system like the one presented here. Difference is that I suspect mine to be dragging a bit, but not all the time. It engages soon after the pedal leaves the floor, but everything is fine in the morning when I first start driving , All gears change nice and smooth, just like with the engine off. Thing is after some time, a few miles through the city even, 1st and 2nd (mostly) are getting stiff, along with a crunchy reverse.
Just trying to see where to start, and what is my best bet for now to get it sorted. Gearbox seems fine, but whatever it is, it looks like it's temperature related, or it might be just the use of the clutch pedal for a number of times before the problem shows up, as sometimes if I drive for hours on the motorway, without changing gears, when I leave at a junction, the gears are changing almost like they do in the morning:chin:.
It might be the clutch itself, the hydraulic system, or even the gearbox oil, but I doubt that , as sometimes, if it's really busy and I use the clutch often, it starts acting after a few miles only, don't think the oil in the gearbox has the time to become that hot...
Tried bleeding the slave cylinder a few times , but giving the fact that my pedal feel is consistent until it reaches the floor, no softness at any point, no play in it , I think I should move on to something else.I just hope it is not the clutch plate spring that might stop working properly once it gets hot. I think we can also rule out the wear on the fork, giving the fact that it changes gears just fine in the morning.
Can't say if the travel of my slave cylinder is what it should be, as I have nothing to compare it to, but maybe I get lucky if I change this and put a new one in?
Thank you for taking the time to read through all this . !

Whilst similar at first "glance" it's not really like our symptoms were as mine didn't change with engine temperature or distance driven. You've obviously read the account of my diagnostic "prowess" (or more accurately, lack of) so I find myself reluctant to get too involved here. There is one little nagging thought tickling away at the back of my brain though. If there is plenty of movement of the slave/release arm then it might just be the driven plate binding on the first motion shaft splines? Then again it might not. I don't think these engine/gearboxes have a spigot bearing - which can run dry and give a similar problem - so that's not the problem. The fact that reverse crunches and 1st/2nd gear become hard to engage does point to the clutch dragging. You would be best advised to fix this sooner rather than later as that stiffness you are feeling is the synchros trying to equalize the gear speeds as you shift. If you go on doing this long term you will cause severe wear to the synchro cones and end up rebuilding the box.

Whatever it turns out to be I hope you solve it without spending as much money as I did.
Kind regards
Jock

As said earlier, do the cheap/easy first: BLEED the system ! Then if there is no improvement you'll need to step further. You could "see" what happens under the bonnet when the problem occurs, it's pretty easy nowadays with a go-pro and an LED torch...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

Bernievarian said:

As said earlier, do the cheap/easy firstIf someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

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And there you have hit the nail squarely on it's head Bernie. My problem, as Mrs Jock will tell you, is that I invariably look for the worst/most complicated/expensive scenario first!

Right, although I have perfomed some bleeding at the slave cylinder, this time I will change the brake fluid, this one it is clear no more, so it's due a change anyway.So, new DOT4 in the brake fluid tank, and through all the hydraulic clutch system, to make sure there is no air whatsoever in there.See if that makes any difference, if not, I will proceed to the next less expensive thing. I'll let you know.

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

My problem, as Mrs Jock will tell you, is that I invariably look for the worst/most complicated/expensive scenario first!

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Mrs Bernie has the remarkable ability to detect the hidden price of things: when we go shopping (furnitures, cloths etc.) She will ALWAYS fall in love with the most expensive item !! ;-)

Why make it simple when it could be complicated ?

I've change all the brake fluid everywhere, and spent extra time bleeding the clutch with a vacuum pump. I've spent 2 hours just taking fluid from the slave cylinder, and adding back clean and still fluid in the tank, with no bubbles in it. It seems that after that, I still get a low biting point and a confirmed drag . It can only spin really slowly the wheel in 1st gear when jacked up, but that is enough to know that something is wrong. Thing is after pressing the clutch pedal a few times, if I release fluid through the slave cylinder, it takes a few seconds until small really fine bubbles appear, I can see them through the clear hose. I can't get rid of those, it's like the fluid has been shaken(because of the pedal presses). Question is, Is that pointing more towards the master clutch cylinder,giving the fact that bubbles take a few second to appear, or should I go for the slave first??

And still, after all this, and knowing that I'm not losing brake fluid, and my clutch pedal is firm as it should be, not getting too hard or soft no matter how long or when I drive, my thoughts are towards the clutch plate,diaphragm spring not performing as it should anymore no matter how much is being pressed on by the slave cylinder rod, or a warped clutch disc, either one, gearbox off?

I feel it's a bit of a cheek for me to be trying to advise you after the total B**** *p I made of trying to diagnose the clutch problem on our 2012 Punto 1.4 8 valve. However I feel I have learned from that, expensive, experience.

You say you are still getting air coming out with the fluid when you're bleeding? This just shouldn't be so which leads me to believe you must have a hydraulics problem. My "gut feeling" is that it may be the master cylinder - but what do I know? I got that wrong big time with ours. Also worth remembering that, on our later model Punto, the master cylinder is not easy to remove/fit due to the pedal box needing to be virtually removed for access. Don't know if it's easier on the earlier models.

You're talking about taking the box out to examine the clutch itself - biggish job. We reached this conclusion too but, although the clutch was actually quite worn (just due to age) it actually had nothing really wrong with it. Having stripped it down a new 3 part clutch kit was fitted anyway.

So let's consider the more common problems the clutch itself can produce:
1. Slipping when power is applied and/or noisy as the drive is taken up. Most often due to a worn out driven plate or oil contamination of the plate. With this problem the pedal will feel pretty normal, maybe a little heavier to operate due to the diaphragm being more over centre due to the thinness of a worn driven plate. Oil contamination can also cause Judder as the drive is taken up.
2. Rattly/whining/scraping noises which alter when the clutch pedal is depressed. Most often due to the release bearing breaking up. Usually the pedal won't feel much different to normal - until the bearing or diaphragm fingers break up altogether. (the noise will be extreme by then! The release fork (where the release bearing rests) and the plastic bearing sleeves on the release arm can wear too which might cause a change in pedal feel. Our local Indy Fiat workshop told me this is a very rare thing to find though and the plastic bushes wearing is probably the more likely problem of the two but they would have to wear to a very large degree to make a big difference to the pedal. They didn't rate it highly as a likely problem.
3. Seized or corroded driven plate splines/first motion shaft. Will cause a dragging clutch making gear selection difficult with gears "crashing". Pedal will feel pretty normal.
4. Dry/worn/semi seized pilot bearing (only some engines have pilot bearings and I don't think ours do) but if it's semi seized or dry it can cause a dragging clutch. If badly worn it allows the plate to "wobble" a little which usually causes a grabbing, vibration/judder when engaging but the pedal will, again feel pretty normal.

If I'd intelligently engaged my brain before acting I would have realized that our Punto was doing none of that so it was unlikely that anything was wrong with the clutch itself! And of course there wasn't - it turned out to be the slave cylinder! As it turned out, although our clutch was not actually worn out and wasn't causing the pedal fault we were very "lucky" (if that's the right way to put it) to find that both the diaphragm fingers - worn by the release bearing - and driven plate were on their last legs. They would probably have gone on for a wee while longer but would have failed in the not too distant future. Fitting the new clutch had been good "preventive maintenance".

There are many posts on the forum saying how suspect the clutch hydraulics are and advising people to explore them first - I should have listened!

Hi!

Today as usual, it worked like a charm in the morning, but I drove more locally , and I got caught by rush hours as well.As expected, the clutch pedal was used let's just say "a lot!". Clutch drag got at its worst, to the point that the van would not roll over with the 1st engaged and clutch pressed, but slowly going backwards in neutral. So in order to eliminate the hydraulic system, soon as I got home, I bleed the system quickly, circulated about 400ml of fluid through the slave cylinder nipple, and went for a drive. Even though I got some bubbles by doing this, I seriously think that they might enter past the first rubber seal, as you pull on the flexi hose to set it for the bleeding mode. No big improvement after all this, which again points towards something that is happening inside the bell housing.
I think if it was for the hydraulic system, either slave or master, to let some air in with each pedal press, it would get to that point where we would see fluid leaking and too much air in the system, leading slowly to a clutch that is not disengaging at all.
At this point, I am seriously starting to look at clutch kits... Any other ideas, please do share . Let me know if I am missing something. Thank you for your time !

libarca said:

Hi!

Today as usual, it worked like a charm in the morning, but I drove more locally , and I got caught by rush hours as well.As expected, the clutch pedal was used let's just say "a lot!". Clutch drag got at its worst, to the point that the van would not roll over with the 1st engaged and clutch pressed, but slowly going backwards in neutral. So in order to eliminate the hydraulic system, soon as I got home, I bleed the system quickly, circulated about 400ml of fluid through the slave cylinder nipple, and went for a drive. Even though I got some bubbles by doing this, I seriously think that they might enter past the first rubber seal, as you pull on the flexi hose to set it for the bleeding mode. No big improvement after all this, which again points towards something that is happening inside the bell housing.
I think if it was for the hydraulic system, either slave or master, to let some air in with each pedal press, it would get to that point where we would see fluid leaking and too much air in the system, leading slowly to a clutch that is not disengaging at all.
At this point, I am seriously starting to look at clutch kits... Any other ideas, please do share . Let me know if I am missing something. Thank you for your time !

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Yup, I know, incredibly frustrating isn't it? I can only go back to my experience with the Punto where there was absolutely no visual indication that it was a slave cylinder problem - no leaks, no nothing - and yet when I put a new slave cylinder on it (after changing everything else at great expense) the problem totally went away!

I know what you mean, and if you think about it, for the cost of a slave cylinder, I think it's well worth getting that off the list with the possible faulty parts, before starting to think about spending the big £££. Thing is, which cylinder should I start with? Which one is more prone to failure? Normally you would change both I guess,just to make sure there will be no more problems in the near future...

As already said many times, do the easyest / cheapest first ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

Checked the master cylinder,after blocking the line, pedal solid as a rock and it stays like that while pressed. Changed the slave, good nice bleeding, problem still there.
If only I would have known that this model has a hole on top of the gearbox bell housing. It was obstructed by a water hose, and I couldn't see the rubber plug. I used that to spy a little on my clutch, have a look at those pictures.
By the looks of it, it is the original oem, clutch plate 55226970.
And the state of it actually explains the symptoms I've been having. Hydraulics all seem fine, and it works well for the first few miles until the engine gets up to temperature. My guess is that due to the wear,those tips that are being pressed by the release bearing, are now so thin that they are being afected by temperature, not transfering the force effectively.
I have a good feeling that a new cutch kit will solve the problem. Either way, it sure needs one pretty soon anyway. Only problem is that I can't seem to find the Valeo equivalent for that OEM part number. Found a couple that are recommended for this engine and model, but none of them are mentioning compatibility with this part number. Loads of other matches, but not this particular one.Wondee why, because there are loads of second ones out there, meaning they have been fitted for a while on this model?