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Technical Replace GP Selespeed/Dualogc pump with Alfa one?

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Technical Replace GP Selespeed/Dualogc pump with Alfa one?

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gunemalli

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Hi Folks,

My pump failed about two ago and had got it repaired by a shop, which failed again in a weeks time due to an internal short. It's now repaired again and working quite well. However, I'd like to get this replaced ASAP.

Searching though eBay and other places, I find that Alfa 147 pump looks exactly like the one I need. Has anyone here tried this motor?

On a secondary note, how often should this pump activate on Neutral? Mine turns on every 10s ish. I don't see any transmission fluid leaks though.

Thanks a lot.

Asanka.
 
Hi Asanka,

on the dualogic, the pump fills an (nitrogen pre-loaded) accumulator, a sensor shuts the pump when the pressure reaches the set value (about 46 bars) and restarts it when pressures drops to about 30 bars.
When no action is required, the pressure is kept in the distribution block by a one way (check) valve.

Scenario 1: the check valve slowly leaks back: the pressure drops accordingly and eventually the pumps start refilling the accumulator.

Scenario 2: the accumulator has lost its preload (broken membrane etc.): internal micro-leaks in the block or at check valve will drop the pressure with same result for the pump.

The accumulator got a 250ccm capacity so shout be able to handle a few gear changes on its own.
With engine already running, wait for the pump to stop and then immediately engage 1st gear, then disengage: the pump should NOT start; if it does, the accumulator is probably the culprit.
If so it would be full of oïl (on each side of the membrane): depressurize the system (need the MES stuff), remove the accumulator and check its weight: must be about 280 gr when empty ...

BTW, no wonder why the pump died if it started every 10ish sec !!

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)
 
I have an Alfa pump motor on my Panda Dualogic.
Had to swap the pump mechanism over (4 bolts, if I remember correctly), but motor itself was identical.
 
Cheers Bernie,

Will look into these shortly. I'm trying to source a working ELM327 unit to work with MultiECUScan. Once I have that will be able to do the diagnostics with ease.
 
Bernievarian said:
Hi Asanka,

on the dualogic, the pump fills an (nitrogen pre-loaded) accumulator, a sensor shuts the pump when the pressure reaches the set value (about 46 bars) and restarts it when pressures drops to about 30 bars.
When no action is required, the pressure is kept in the distribution block by a one way (check) valve.

Scenario 1: the check valve slowly leaks back: the pressure drops accordingly and eventually the pumps start refilling the accumulator.

Scenario 2: the accumulator has lost its preload (broken membrane etc.): internal micro-leaks in the block or at check valve will drop the pressure with same result for the pump.

The accumulator got a 250ccm capacity so shout be able to handle a few gear changes on its own.
With engine already running, wait for the pump to stop and then immediately engage 1st gear, then disengage: the pump should NOT start; if it does, the accumulator is probably the culprit.
If so it would be full of oïl (on each side of the membrane): depressurize the system (need the MES stuff), remove the accumulator and check its weight: must be about 280 gr when empty ...

BTW, no wonder why the pump died if it started every 10ish sec !!

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)
Click to expand...


Hi Bernie,

So had the chance to test this with multiecuscan. When the car is not started but in the ON position, pump cuts out at 50 bars. It starts again when it drops below 40 bars i.e. when it hits 39 bars the pump starts.

Again whilst not started, I'm able to do about 2-3 shifts before the pressure drops below 40 bars.

There seems to be a slow leak as the pressure dropped about 1 bar within about 30-60s.

I forgot to test whilst on start, so will check on that later.

Regards
 
For the Alfa pump: check part numbers on ePER on top of this page, if they are the same, you'll know...
You can switch from Fiat to Alfa on this parts program, or just fill in the Fiat part number in the "search" function, it shows on what models the part is used...
 
Hi Asanka,

I'm puzzled now: 1 bar drop every 30-60 sec and 11 bars between high pressure and pump restart shouldn't result in a 10ish sec interval ...

What am I missing ??
 
Bernievarian said:
Hi Asanka,

I'm puzzled now: 1 bar drop every 30-60 sec and 11 bars between high pressure and pump restart shouldn't result in a 10ish sec interval ...

What am I missing ??
Click to expand...


Hi Bernie,

Had some more time to do full diagnostic run today. Here are the details:

Engine turned on and running, the pump turns on every 10s i.e. line pressure drops 10 bars in 10s.

However, engine off, nothing running, line pressure drops by 1 bar every 30-60s ish.

I then ran a clutch bleed command about 3 times assuming there's air in the line but the issue still remains.

I was thinking of doing an accumulator depressurization, but was afraid to do it because I do not know what next steps should be done to get it back to normal.

I'm thinking either seals are shot, the one-way check valve is faulty?

Regards
 
Hi Asanka,

honestly I don't understand WHY the pressure drop is different wether the engine is running or not. The only reason I can think of is vibrations ...

Clutch bleeding has no relation with the pump/accumulator, it's done on the other side of the actuator (clutch master cylinder).

Depressurization is due when (before) replacing parts in the hydraulic block/system or for level checking and is self reset when function is turned off in MES.

What would happen if you stop the engine during the 10 sec lap ? Would the high rate drop stop aswell ?

BRs, Bernie
 
Hi Bernie,

Thanks for responding to all these questions. Had the car up on a ramp today to replace the steering rack ends. Removed the pump cover and there was an oil leak coming from top front solenoid. I'll post a picture in a few minutes.

Regards
 
Hi Bernie,

This is the one I found leaking.

Also to answer your question, yes as soon I turn off the engine the pressure drop rate reduces significantly.

Regards
 

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As Bernie said ... the accumulator has the membrane torn/broken..or just microleaks... pressure will drop very fast after leaking very little oil....it's just how hydraulics work. You need the air/gas in the accumulator in order to keep higher/constant(ish) pressure for a longer time.
I's probably not the only issue, there might be some minor leaks in the system (internal -checkvalves not sealing- or external the small leak we are seing the that picture).
A leak, one drop every second in a system that contains only uncompressible liquid will cause a massive drop in pressure in a very short time... whereas the same leak in a combined system will take minutes to loose all pressure.
 
Last edited:
So ordered a new accumulator as suggested. It should arrive this week, but will need to wait to get it fixed. Will report back after this.

The oil leak seems to be coming off a hose instead of the solenoid itself. Can only confirm after fitting a new hydrolic hose. This is the oil return line which was in bad shape and broke when doing the repairs last time.
 
So I just had the accumulator replaced and the problem is still the same. The pressure drops the same rate as before i.e 1bar/sec.

What other areas should I be looking at for the high pressure circuit?
 
Mmmh, a leaking check valve should not leak more when the engine is running (as it does on your car) so I believe we can eliminate that possibility.
The last one I can think about is the clutch (embreagem) electro-valve (EV0) internaly leaking (or a crack in the hydraulic block).
I need to double check but I think the controler disconnects the gearbox to start the engine by disengaging the clutch (as a human should do) that would explain why the pressure drops faster when engine is running...
Can you confirm that it does so as soon as the power is ON ??

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)
 

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  • Dualogic hidrolico.JPG
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Last edited:
Hi Bernie,

You're spot on. It does disengage and goes to N when the engine is starting if it was in any other gear than in N. Haven't had any issues with it.

To clarify, at MAR just before ignition, nothing happens. The moment I turn the key to On/Start, gear shifts to N and stays at N. Only then the engine starts to fire up.

If the gear was in N already when parking, it would just start straight away without any issues.

Thanks a lot for your help Bernie. Really appreciate it.
 
Last edited:
Hi Bernie,

Do you happen to know which unit is the EV0? A part number perhaps I can order and replace it with?

Regards
 
Have a look at item #9 on the drawing ...

There is NO guarantee that it's your issue BTW !

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)
 

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  • Dualogic valve part.JPG
    Dualogic valve part.JPG
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