If you want before tools arrive you can prepare by removing valve cover.
If you do that you can look at end of cam shaft and see angle of slot that accepts special tool and notch that should be in 12 o'clock position.according to photos on pmm guide.
But pay attention to the position the crank shaft pulley position in pmm guide photos as it's different to position you set following Ford ka guide.

Ford set camshaft timing using belt marks and marks on crankshaft and cam shaft, while crankshaft set at TOP DEAD CENTRE.

Fiat set camshaft timing using special tools with the pistons half way up/down the bores. 90 degrees PAST TOP DEAD CENTRE.

You are now committed to doing it with special tools the fiat way.

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

Looks to me that Ford mark up the pulleys with coloured marks. I haven't seen any evidence of this on our Panda or my boy's Punto so I think the best thing to do is buy the timing tools. You will get it spot on that way without having to think too much about the deeper technicalities of the operation.

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Oh dear I thought far too much about the technicalities (-:

jackwhoo said:

The lines on the crankshaft sprocket were fine if you were doing it the Ford way.
The problem is you have no mark on the camshaft sprocket to line up with the belt line.
If you had made your own mark in the correct place on the cam sprocket before removing the old belt you would have been ok.
Problem now is both camshaft and crankshaft sprockets have been wiggled so you must get the special tools to ensure correct relationship between crankshaft and cam shaft.

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Thanks for the explanation. However when the old belt was there it was aligned with all the marks on the crankshaft and the cam. I replaced it with the new belt with the same marks... I must have screwed up along the way... In my mind I did as you say (probably I didnt)

Refering to your first post ,The sprocket on the camshaft is not keyed to the camshaft, there is no zero tooth.
Unless you set crankshaft too top dead centre and make your own mark.

You can't do that now because you have lost the timing between crank and cam shafts

josa100 said:

Thanks for the explanation. However when the old belt was there it was aligned with all the marks on the crankshaft and the cam. I replaced it with the new belt with the same marks... I must have screwed up along the way... In my mind I did as you say (probably I didnt)

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Was the old belt fitted the wrong way round , that is to say not respecting the direction of travel arrows?
Are the distances between the lines on the old and new belts the same?

Me too I'm afraid! In any given situation I'm afraid I tend to always think the worst and will invariably be looking for the most complicated and expensive option rather than the simplest, cheapest and often most obvious.

Whilst I've spent my life trying to be an optimist I've had to accept, in my old age, that the majority of glasses are indeed half empty!

PS Sorry, I forgot to trigger the "quote" box on jackwhoo's comment about Technicalities.

jackwhoo said:

Was the old belt fitted the wrong way round , that is to say not respecting the direction of travel arrows?
Are the distances between the lines on the old and new belts the same?

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Yes right travel direction before and after. If I would turn the belt it would be an even worse fit. Yes the distances between the marks are the same on old and new belt.

josa100 said:

Yes right travel direction before and after. If I would turn the belt it would be an even worse fit. Yes the distances between the marks are the same on old and new belt.

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I hope all will become clear when you have the special tools (-:
Good luck

Random question on this subject. Some time ago I watched one of those car restoration shows on TV, where they changed the cambelt on an MX-5. The mechanic left the old belt in place, but used a Stanley knife to cut it in half along its length, then cut and removed the front half. With the half belt holding all the pulleys in position, he then worked the new belt halfway onto the pulleys, cut off the rest of the old belt, then pushed the new belt all the way on. Looked quite clever.

I appreciate that the 500 installation is totally different, and this would not replace the water pump and tensioner, but would it be practical to use this method for a simple cambelt change?

TrevC said:

Random question on this subject.

I appreciate that the 500 installation is totally different, and this would not replace the water pump and tensioner, but would it be practical to use this method for a simple cambelt change?

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Yes..

Ive seen the method quoted a lot on here and as you say its great for a belt swap.. as long as things are kept in basic tension (belt kept engaged on all timed pulleys)

TrevC said:

Random question on this subject. Some time ago I watched one of those car restoration shows on TV, where they changed the cambelt on an MX-5. The mechanic left the old belt in place, but used a Stanley knife to cut it in half along its length, then cut and removed the front half. With the half belt holding all the pulleys in position, he then worked the new belt halfway onto the pulleys, cut off the rest of the old belt, then pushed the new belt all the way on. Looked quite clever.

I appreciate that the 500 installation is totally different, and this would not replace the water pump and tensioner, but would it be practical to use this method for a simple cambelt change?

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It would work
However it Seems to be the tensioner or the water pump that usually goes rather then the belt itself so it's still leaving the worst 2 parts of the system in place

chris3234 said:

It would work
However it Seems to be the tensioner or the water pump that usually goes rather then the belt itself so it's still leaving the worst 2 parts of the system in place

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Absolutely. Except under very unusual circumstances, I would always do the tensioner and water pump when renewing a timing belt (except on engines where the water pump is driven by the aux belt so is not a part of the timing belt system and even then I'd be having a very careful look at it and giving it a spin whilst it's belt was off.).

If you do go with the "Fuzz Townshend" system - as described above - it's perhaps worth thinking about what you are going to do if something happens and a pulley moves. Perhaps the remaining bit of belt slips off or you find the water pump is leaking slightly and you couldn't see it earlier, etc. Could you cope with that, and if you could then why bother "fiddling" about like this? just do it properly. If you couldn't work with it you need to consider a £75 to £100 tow charge to get the car to a garage (that's a pretty average cost up here for an up to 10 miles tow anyway). Consider too that the garage may be reluctant to take on a job like this where an "amateur" of unknown ability has been "fiddling". From past experience I've found jobs like this can be more bother than they're worth with broken off fixings and sometimes more serious damage having been caused by the over enthusiastic but inexperienced home mechanic.

Please don't think I'm trying to put anyone off having a go. However if it's a job like this where the consequences of getting it wrong can be seriously expensive then it's best to have a well informed "mate" to look over your shoulder and advise on the tricky bits.

If I do a belt and uncertain of the correct alignment marks,
1,Set engine at TDC cylinder 1 on compression.
2,make my own marks on a cam pulley/s tooth valley/s and matching belt tooth/teeth
3, make my own marks on crank pulley and belt
4, make similar marks on any other pulleys , balance shaft/s. Injector pumps,intermediate shafts etc.
5, note where all my marks are plus take a few photos.
6, remove belt and transfer marks to new belt, double / triple checking marks on new belt correct by measuring and counting teeth.
7, renew water pump and tensioner
8, fit new belt aligning my marks.
9, tension belt following instructions,
10, rotate engine my hand gently to make sure no piston valve clash
11, finish rest of job as normal.



Anyone else think it's significant that there are 6 teeth between the two belt lines at the crank pulley and it looks like the difference between the posters mark and where pulley ended up is 6 teeth?

The crank pulley should have a mark on it.. and the cam pulley should have a mark on it.

If those are lined up with their respective pointers, then the lines on the belt are academic. I'd rather trust the engine marks rather than a belt made by someone else that could happen to fit several different engines.

If you have a locking tool, then that's handy to lock the crank and cam(s) in position... but essentially it also just helps you to not have to rely on the belt's lines/dots etc.

Mind you, my (JTD) crank locking tool is for a Vauxhall/something and when I lock the crank as close as I can to the crank pulley marks, it moves the cam marks round one tooth...


Ralf S.

jackwhoo said:

If I do a belt and uncertain of the correct alignment marks,
1,Set engine at TDC cylinder 1 on compression.
2,make my own marks on a cam pulley/s tooth valley/s and matching belt tooth/teeth
3, make my own marks on crank pulley and belt
4, make similar marks on any other pulleys , balance shaft/s. Injector pumps,intermediate shafts etc.
5, note where all my marks are plus take a few photos.
6, remove belt and transfer marks to new belt, double / triple checking marks on new belt correct by measuring and counting teeth.
7, renew water pump and tensioner
8, fit new belt aligning my marks.
9, tension belt following instructions,
10, rotate engine my hand gently to make sure no piston valve clash
11, finish rest of job as normal.



Anyone else think it's significant that there are 6 teeth between the two belt lines at the crank pulley and it looks like the difference between the posters mark and where pulley ended up is 6 teeth?

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You mean I screwed up with the marks on crank pulley? Anyway I will use the tool I ordered since it seems fail safe...

josa100 said:

You mean I screwed up with the marks on crank pulley? Anyway I will use the tool I ordered since it seems fail safe...

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I honestly don't know what has happened and not criticising. It occurred to me that pictures look like there is a 6 tooth difference and that is same number of teeth between the two close lines.
Really looking forward to hearing from you what happens.
You aren't the only person having vvt pulley problems. Have a look at recent post
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/480428-vvt-cam-sprocket-help-required-new-post.html

jackwhoo said:

I honestly don't know what has happened and not criticising. It occurred to me that pictures look like there is a 6 tooth difference and that is same number of teeth between the two close lines.
Really looking forward to hearing from you what happens.
You aren't the only person having vvt pulley problems. Have a look at recent post
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/480428-vvt-cam-sprocket-help-required-new-post.html

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I wasnt upset with the suggestion. Its frustrating when I dont understand were I went wrong and just tried to understand what it could have been... (english is my second language so I might have expressed myself in such a way that I sounded "offended" but Im not. )

Well, I'm certainly going to let the local independent garage do the belt in my wife's 500c after reading this lot! Always assuming they give a reasonable quote - I'm thinking £250-£300 for the belts, waterpump and tensioner?

TrevC said:

Well, I'm certainly going to let the local independent garage do the belt in my wife's 500c after reading this lot! Always assuming they give a reasonable quote - I'm thinking £250-£300 for the belts, waterpump and tensioner?

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Despite the fact that I tend to be a bit of a pessimist - had too many "simple" jobs gone wrong over the years - These 8 valve engines are actually at the "simpler" end of the spectrum as far as doing a timing belt change. The most awkward bit is accessing the bottom bolts on the part of the engine mount which is fixed to the front of the engine and this is more difficult on the "tighter" engine bays (ie Panda - I haven't, yet, worked on the 500) I did our Panda before working on my boy's Punto and the Punto was much easier to access.

So I wouldn't put anyone off having a go at one but doing timing belts are not for the novice or those lacking confidence - certainly not the sort of job you should be undertaking having just bought your first set of tools!

Anyone who has worked on vehicles for any length of time will probably acknowledge that "simple jobs" -renewing a wheel cylinder, unscrewing a steel bolt from an alloy casting, ruining a brake master cylinder when bleeding out which up 'till then has worked perfectly, cross threading a fixing and so on - can sometimes turn into a nightmare, often due to corrosion.

The problems unfolding in this thread are quite a good example and may have more than one cause. I can't wait to find out how it all turns out!