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Old 03-01-2019   #61
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
So what value are you going to put on protecting the safety of yourself and your loved ones?

The additional cost of buying a car with properly up-to-date safety built in might seem a waste of money... ...until something bad happens. Saving a few quid on your running costs might not look like such a good idea if you're spending the rest of your life contemplating your choice from the confines of your wheelchair.
I agree that passive safety is important, but cars have had good passive safety for a fair while now. That is what I value far more than driver aids, especially given how fallible they are.
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Old 03-01-2019   #62
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Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
I agree that passive safety is important, but cars have had good passive safety for a fair while now. That is what I value far more than driver aids, especially given how fallible they are.
The Volvo 940 was once held up as a car that had great passive safety.


Things have moved on and Iíd rather be in a 500 or your Punto when crashing into a 940.

Now think about how things have moved on even further from the Punto and the Panda....
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Old 03-01-2019   #63
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by AGH1965 View Post
Of course Brussels will make electronic cock-washers mandatory soon. I'm afraid that you in the UK are going to miss such indispensable legislation in the near future.
"Electronics" sounds a bit bourgois. It's alright for the Continentals I suppose... but Brexit Britain will just mandate that every car should have a wire brush in the glove box...


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Old 03-01-2019   #64
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Very interesting discussions... and I suppose that it's true that a 500 or a Panda is relatively not as "class leading" in safety 2018 than it was in 2008... but that just emphasises the flaws with NCAP.

NCAP safety is only relative. It may be true that a 500 or Panda is relatively less "safe" compared to other cars now than it was in 2008. That does not (as NCAP now insinuates) make it less "safe" in absolute terms. Imagine Usain Bolt runs 100m in 9 seconds. Next year his cousin Bosain Nuts, using a legal supplement/new medical and nutritional technology runs 100m in 8.8 seconds. NCAP says that Usain is now a back-marking slow-coach. 100m in 9s clearly is not "slow". Panda managed 3 or 4 stars when it was Usain Bolt. It is not now suddenly unsafe. NCAP should add new stars to its system rather than revisit past results when the recent/past results were otherwise impressive.

Which brings me to my second problem with NCAP;

The NCAP scores are based on the possession of passive "aids" of often dubious relevance to the number of accidents they might prevent. If NCAP was properly serious then an automatic speed limit recognition system and speed limiter would be the "must have" accessory that should be worth a star all by itself... but it isn't. iDrive and any form of in-car "entertainment" should earn a de-merit just for being fitted... but they don't.

Let's say NCAP suddenly decides that hill-holders make a difference to the few cars who have another one roll back into them every year... reducing creased bumpers at a traffic lights is a noble objective but is it really the kind of accident that makes a difference to people..? Or does hill holders just reduce the statistics? Hint; "statistics" is how NCAP earns its funding. Panda without hill-holders suddenly loses a star. A newer car built with one, gains a star. That's how it works.

I'm not necessarily biased towards Fiat (although this is a Fiat Forum, not "Safety Vest World" so guess what...? ) but for me, if there is a car that earned 5 stars and then a few years later it gets zero just because it doesn't have certain gizmo's and features added (even though the consequences of not having them are in many cases of dubious value compared to the actual saftey benefit), then that implies to me that there is a defective evaluation and/or scoring system.

We should not just blindly swallow whatever comes out of NCAP. They risk confusing the consumers by their clumsy approach. NCAP... you had 4*... but this year I give you 1*.

Ralf S.
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Old 03-01-2019   #65
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by Ralf S. View Post
Very interesting discussions... and I suppose that it's true that a 500 or a Panda is relatively not as "class leading" in safety 2018 than it was in 2008... but that just emphasises the flaws with NCAP.

I'm not necessarily biased towards Fiat (although this is a Fiat Forum, not "Safety Vest World" so guess what...? ) but for me, if there is a car that earned 5 stars and then a few years later it gets zero just because it doesn't have certain gizmo's and features added (even though the consequences of not having them are in many cases of dubious value compared to the actual saftey benefit), then that implies to me that there is a defective evaluation and/or scoring system.

At the risk of continuing to derail this thread when there's a more appropriate one on the Panda forum, the Panda didn't get zero stars just for a lack of driver safety aids. The rear occupant safety score alone was enough to warrant the zero rating. I don't have any sympathy for Fiat, EuroNCAP make the industry aware of future test requirements a few years before they are introduced so there is manufacturer opportunity to improve vehicle performance.

Where I do agree is that the star rating is a moving target making like for like comparisons difficult for the buying public. There are vehicles contemporary with the Panda currently enjoy a higher rating because they have not yet been retested to the current EuroNCAP standards (eg VW Up!), potentially misleading consumers.
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Old 03-01-2019   #66
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by Ralf S. View Post
So, NCAP might decide that in 2019 an electronic cock-washer is mandatory
The anatomy or your assumption is slightly incorrect. In 2019 NCAP fully focuses on electronic <expletive deleted by moderator> support, because without proper support any <expletive deleted by moderator> in a car can cause a deadly accident.
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Old 03-01-2019   #67
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Quote Originally Posted by Ralf S. View Post
Very interesting discussions... and I suppose that it's true that a 500 or a Panda is relatively not as "class leading" in safety 2018 than it was in 2008... but that just emphasises the flaws with NCAP.

NCAP safety is only relative. It may be true that a 500 or Panda is relatively less "safe" compared to other cars now than it was in 2008. That does not (as NCAP now insinuates) make it less "safe" in absolute terms. Imagine Usain Bolt runs 100m in 9 seconds. Next year his cousin Bosain Nuts, using a legal supplement/new medical and nutritional technology runs 100m in 8.8 seconds. NCAP says that Usain is now a back-marking slow-coach. 100m in 9s clearly is not "slow". Panda managed 3 or 4 stars when it was Usain Bolt. It is not now suddenly unsafe. NCAP should add new stars to its system rather than revisit past results when the recent/past results were otherwise impressive.

Which brings me to my second problem with NCAP;

The NCAP scores are based on the possession of passive "aids" of often dubious relevance to the number of accidents they might prevent. If NCAP was properly serious then an automatic speed limit recognition system and speed limiter would be the "must have" accessory that should be worth a star all by itself... but it isn't. iDrive and any form of in-car "entertainment" should earn a de-merit just for being fitted... but they don't.

Let's say NCAP suddenly decides that hill-holders make a difference to the few cars who have another one roll back into them every year... reducing creased bumpers at a traffic lights is a noble objective but is it really the kind of accident that makes a difference to people..? Or does hill holders just reduce the statistics? Hint; "statistics" is how NCAP earns its funding. Panda without hill-holders suddenly loses a star. A newer car built with one, gains a star. That's how it works.

I'm not necessarily biased towards Fiat (although this is a Fiat Forum, not "Safety Vest World" so guess what...? ) but for me, if there is a car that earned 5 stars and then a few years later it gets zero just because it doesn't have certain gizmo's and features added (even though the consequences of not having them are in many cases of dubious value compared to the actual saftey benefit), then that implies to me that there is a defective evaluation and/or scoring system.

We should not just blindly swallow whatever comes out of NCAP. They risk confusing the consumers by their clumsy approach. NCAP... you had 4*... but this year I give you 1*.

Ralf S.
With all due respect you have no idea. iDrive is the industry standard that everyone aims for. Once youíre used to it you donít find it distracting and itís no more distracting or confusing than driving a 500 or a Panda.

NCAP is clear and not confusing at all. EURONCAP didnít just spring this on the industry, it was known about for a years and years. Fiat had as much time as everyone else to prepare and chose not to upgrade in terms of passive or active safety to the point where their products would be class leading as they used to be.

Youíve got to question the mentality of people on here when they canít comprehend how active safety features can be beneficial. You donít need airbags and a strong shell if you donít have the accident in the first place...
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Old 03-01-2019   #68
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

I'm reminding everyone about the forum rules on the use of inappropriate language.

I've already edited one post for this reason.

It's not necessary to resort to profanity to make a point.

Anyone continuing to use inappropriate language in this thread will be infracted; there will be no further warnings.
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Old 03-01-2019   #69
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

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Old 03-01-2019   #70
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Quote Originally Posted by 306maxi View Post
The Volvo 940 was once held up as a car that had great passive safety.

https://youtu.be/qBDyeWofcLY

Things have moved on and Iíd rather be in a 500 or your Punto when crashing into a 940.

Now think about how things have moved on even further from the Punto and the Panda....
I get that things have moved on, I just don't feel that what was a very safe car 15 years ago is suddenly now a deathtrap, bearing in mind that the aforementioned 5* cars had to withstand pretty hefty impacts on order to gain that rating in the 1st place. The fact that you said an avoidance system was confused by a piece of litter gives me no reassurance on this tech at all. With regards to the fifth gear clip, I remember it terrifying me when I saw it 10 years ago, and it's worth bearing in mind that the improvements in passive safety from 1995 to 2005 are far, far greater than the improvements between 2005 to the present day.
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Old 03-01-2019   #71
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

Fiat have failed to update their models with the latest safety equipment and have been caught out, which is their silly fault. Considering the sales of the 500 and Panda they had no excuse not to maintain investment.

Where I feel NCAP are wrong however, is that each time they've awarded 0 stars, they've only re-tested Fiat models - the Punto and then the Panda. They've not bothered to re-test other cars launched around the same time. If they'd done that, we'd probably find that rival cars have their scores similarly reduced, especially at the cheaper end of the market that the Panda occupies, where models tend to go with out some of the electronic aids NCAP place weight on when scoring under the latest regime. This is misleading and people no longer know at a glance if one car is actually safer than another. For example you could be mistaken for thinking a VW Up! is now safer than a Panda as it scores more stars. However in reality the Up! might score just as badly as the Panda, if it were re-tested under the new regime that the Panda has been subjected to. The Up! could actually be even less safe than the Panda but if you look at the star ratings you'd be hard pushed to tell.

NCAP have turned into a joke. If I was Fiat I'd be asking serious questions regarding why NCAP have singled out their models over rivals when choosing which to re-test. To me this hasn't been explained by NCAP at all.
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Old 03-01-2019   #72
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

I hope ncap do retest the VW Up, to see how it fairs under the new testing, if only because the Up can be a bargain, in certain trim levels for cheap motoring.
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Old 04-01-2019   #73
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Quote Originally Posted by puntofan01 View Post
I get that things have moved on, I just don't feel that what was a very safe car 15 years ago is suddenly now a deathtrap, bearing in mind that the aforementioned 5* cars had to withstand pretty hefty impacts on order to gain that rating in the 1st place. The fact that you said an avoidance system was confused by a piece of litter gives me no reassurance on this tech at all. With regards to the fifth gear clip, I remember it terrifying me when I saw it 10 years ago, and it's worth bearing in mind that the improvements in passive safety from 1995 to 2005 are far, far greater than the improvements between 2005 to the present day.
The system detected a metallic object passing in front of the car and it reacted accordingly. Missiles that cost tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds can also be confused by foil and other metallic items, itís called chaff https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure)

Standards move on, what was once exceptional is ordinary. Simple as that.
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Old 04-01-2019   #74
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Quote Originally Posted by JTD_Liam View Post
Fiat have failed to update their models with the latest safety equipment and have been caught out, which is their silly fault. Considering the sales of the 500 and Panda they had no excuse not to maintain investment.

Where I feel NCAP are wrong however, is that each time they've awarded 0 stars, they've only re-tested Fiat models - the Punto and then the Panda. They've not bothered to re-test other cars launched around the same time. If they'd done that, we'd probably find that rival cars have their scores similarly reduced, especially at the cheaper end of the market that the Panda occupies, where models tend to go with out some of the electronic aids NCAP place weight on when scoring under the latest regime. This is misleading and people no longer know at a glance if one car is actually safer than another. For example you could be mistaken for thinking a VW Up! is now safer than a Panda as it scores more stars. However in reality the Up! might score just as badly as the Panda, if it were re-tested under the new regime that the Panda has been subjected to. The Up! could actually be even less safe than the Panda but if you look at the star ratings you'd be hard pushed to tell.

NCAP have turned into a joke. If I was Fiat I'd be asking serious questions regarding why NCAP have singled out their models over rivals when choosing which to re-test. To me this hasn't been explained by NCAP at all.
NCAP retest cars after a time period... in the time Fiat have had the Grande Punto/Punto, VW for instance have had 3 different Polos, of course the Polo is going to do better. Ford have had 3 different Fiestas as well.. Renault 3 different Clios.

Stop blaming NCAP for retesting the dross that Fiat keep on producing.

Fiat are close to becoming a former car maker. A 0 or 1 star rating would kill the 500. They need to up their game or they will die.
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Old 04-01-2019   #75
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Re: Is The 105 TA Engine Still Available?

As for the Up! Surprise surprise itís 8 years newer than the Panda platform and can be purchased with AEB as an option. Itís almost as if VW knew that NCAP place importance on AEB and chose to fit it as an option to their smallest car. It probably isnít a 5 star car, but itíll do better than the 500.
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