Technical Yet another HILLHOLDER/ASR fault

[MrMogensen]

Yet another HILLHOLDER/ASR fault - but not ABS...

Hi all - my first post in this forum!

Since the Danish FIAT forum seems dead (has been moved to Facebook and I don't have/want that), I googled what seems to be an excellent forum

I know people are going to be yelling BRAKE LIGHT SWITCH, but I think the way my HILLHOLDER/ASR fault turns up is different from the rest...

Note that I do NOT have an ABS fault
ASR logo and Engine logo illuminates, infocomputer warns about Hillholder + ASR/ESP fault and the ASR button lights up (as if it is off) and can not be engaged.

The fault does NOT come up when I drive "grandma" style. If I focus on not accelerating hard I can drive city or highway without any faults.

But when I put the pedal to the metal and accelerate hard (about as hard as the car can) up through 2nd, 3rd, 4th... sometime in I get the error beeeeeep and "Hillholder + ESP/ASR" fault.
Fault is there until I turn off the engine. Next day only the "engine fault" logo illuminates + beeeep + info computer says "Check engine". I am guessing the "Check engine" come up because the other faults are still stored in memory?
Next day no faults... until I want to have a little extra fun accelerating harder and beeeeeeeeeep.

As far as I have read (from other similar posts) their ESP/Hillholder fault turns up a few seconds after they start - so more likely a brake or clutch switch.

Another (maybe important) thing I need to mention is that last week (half a day before first fault encounter) I started to notice a different sound when accelerating (not hard) - about the rev area when turbo starts to kick in. Difficult to explain a sound but my guess would be related to the intake - kind of a low suction sound. It is only there when revs start to go above 2000 and totally gone when not accelerating.

Took to car to my mechanic few days ago. He thought it was weird I had HILLHOLDER/ESP fault and NOT ABS fault. Took my car for a spin and did not notice anything wrong (except surprised how good a drive it was)
He checked intake hoses and sensors at the wheels.
The computer readout had the following 3 errors:
C1221 (related to ABS/ESP).
B1027 (related to outdoor temperaturesensor).
P0106 (related to MAP sensor).

He reset the faults and on the way home all was well - until I apparently had too much fun accelerating on some twisty roads... Beeeeeeeeeeep!
Talked with mechanic about trying to change the MAP sensor in a few days. Not too expensive and easy fix. Mechanic is unsure about what I explain as a slight increase in suction (maybe intake) noise - his guess would be that is sounds normal?

The outdoor temp error code is most likely not any issue. A few months ago the outdoor temp showed +/-10 degrees until I took of the side mirror and cleaned the plug. So this is probably a stored error?

Car was fully serviced (new tooth belt and so on) one month ago. The airfilter is a conefilter from KN (installed in KN's topcase on top of the original buttoncase). I installed it last year. Yesterday I got the thought that the KN filter might need cleaning and reoiling but look as good as new. Cleaned and reoiled it anyway - have not changed anything.


Sorry for the loooooong post. I have just tried to explain as much as possible... Any tip/advice is greatly appreciated...


Oh and by the way... last week I (for the 1st time) filled up the car with Shell's V-Power 99... instead of the usual Gasoline 95.
Mechanic said that this really shouldn't have anything to do with the faults and that the car should only accelerate slightly better.

Oh aaand battery is 6 months old Varta.

 

[Sporting_Chris]

I had this fault regularly in my early days of ownership. I took the car to a garage to have full 4 wheel laser tracking adjustment.

This was mainly to readjust my steering wheel to be 'centered' when driving in a straight line but as a side effect it cured my hillholder/ASR fault (probably done 150k miles since then)

Note i did NOT have the ABS fault message

My car 1.9 Sporting with ASR/ESP

 

[aurick86]

Re: Yet another HILLHOLDER/ASR fault - but not ABS...

MES= Multiecuscan -"is a vehicle diagnostic software with advanced functions. It allows you to perform various diagnostics tasks on the supported vehicles/modules."..especially FIAT

You should really read the errors with MES if you really want to get something useful.

The outdoor temp sensor might interfere with the ESP/ASR - to determine the possibility of ice on roads.
The C1221 - Left Front Wheel Speed Sensor Input Signal.
Again use MES to graph all 4 wheel speed sensors... see which doesn't look right..should be obvious that one is braking up/not reading/reading a slower speed.

With MES you can also read the errors from the steering wheel module... ESP/ASR will fail if the wheel angle sensor isn't right.
The steering angle is reset if the battery is pulled out.. needs resetting by steering all the way to the right..back to center, all the way to the left , back to center... do this a few times.

 

[Bernievarian]

Re: Yet another HILLHOLDER/ASR fault - but not ABS...

Is it only with foot down or does it need sporty driving on twisty roads ? Any remap on the car ?
My guess is that the ECU reduce the torque when requested from ESP/ASR possibly with the ABS pump slightly actuating the brake(s). If for any reason the ECU "feels" that it's not able to reduce the torque it warns you by showing these messages ..?
I believe also there is an inertia sensor (eg for lateral acceleration), might be at fault also .

Alternatively you could keep on driving 'Gamle Dansk' style ;-)

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

 

[MrMogensen]

Re: Yet another HILLHOLDER/ASR fault - but not ABS...

I changed the battery myself (about 6 months ago) and had no error messages.
The last 2 times I had the error when accelerating (straight) out on the highway.

All very interesting reading - I will show this to my mechanic!

 

[aurick86]

Re: Yet another HILLHOLDER/ASR fault - but not ABS...

I changed the battery myself (about 6 months ago) and had no error messages.
The last 2 times I had the error when accelerating (straight) out on the highway.

All very interesting reading - I will show this to my mechanic!

If you change the battery out fast enough you won't get the error... the modules have some internal capacitors that will take some time to fully discharge... not sure on the exact time.. but about 1 hour seems right.

You could also try disconnect the battery over night(just to be sure) with the exact purpose of resetting the steering angle sensor. Just remember the procedure for relearning: From center steering all the way to the right..back to center, all the way to the left , back to center - try and do this at a steady speed.

That might help.. but the real issue here is the wheel speed sensor (not necessarily the sensor itself.. could be the magnetic strip on the driveshafts, could be the wiring... could be a connector ... etc that is why you pay for diagnostics).

 

[Bernievarian]

Re: Yet another HILLHOLDER/ASR fault - but not ABS...

Want some reading ? Here's what eLearn says about ESP/ASR ...

DESCRIPTION

The ABS electronic anti-lock braking system regulates the braking pressure transmitted to the wheels, preventing them from losing grip whatever the tyre and road conditions.

It is linked to the ESP (Electronic Stability Program) system which controls the stability of the vehicle, intervening, if necessary, on the drive torque and braking the wheels in a differentiated manner: If grip is lost, it helps to restore the vehicle to the correct trajectory. The most comprehensive versions of the ABS control unit also implements ESP (Electronic Stability Program) and ASR (Anti Slip Regulation) functions in addition to the HH "Hill Holder" function and the HBA (Hydraulic Brake Assist) function.

The ESP system also acts on the motor and brakes to generate a stabilising torque when the ABS sensors detect conditions that cause the vehicle to slip. The ESP system has a specific sensor in addition to the ABS sensors: this sensor detects vehicle rotation about the vertical axis and side acceleration (centrifugal force) (yaw sensor); it also uses steering sensor signals from the electric steering control unit supplied via the CAN.

With the HH function, a longitudinal acceleration sensor is also used that is built into the yaw sensor. The ESP system also uses information from the pressure sensor that measures pressure in the hydraulic circuit: this sensor is built into the hydraulic control unit.

The H.B.A. system aids the driver in emergency braking situations when the brake pedal is activated quickly and in poor load maintenance conditions; the system intervenes when the pressure gradient exceeds a certain level (fast application of brake pedal - emergency braking) multiplying the braking pressure at the wheels applied by the driver thereby producing the maximum deceleration that can be achieved.

The ESP system is always combined with the ASR system.

The ASR system increases the active safety and stability of the vehicle controlling the slipping of the drive wheels: if slip is caused by the transmission of excessive power, the system cuts in, with the co-operation of the engine management control unit, to reduce engine power output. If, on the other hand, slip is detected at one wheel only, the system cuts in to brake only the slipping wheel by means of the wheel''s modulating solenoid valve.

The ASR comes on automatically whenever the engine is started: the system can be switched off using the "ASR OFF) button located in the controls in the centre of the dashboard. When the system is off, a led on the button and a warning light on the control panel come on simultaneously. The ESP function, on the other hand, is switched on automatically each time the engine is started up and cannot be turned off.

The Hill Holder system is designed to assist the driver when setting off on an incline. In effect the HH is capable of automatically providing sufficient braking torque to keep the vehicle stationary until the clutch is fully released and the engine toruqe is sufficient to start the vehicle comfortably.

The HH is automatically activated when the brake pedal is pressed in conjunction with the following conditions: the vehicle speed equal to zero, the gradient more than 2% and the clutch pedal pressed; the moment the brake pedal is released, with all the other conditions being equal, the Hill Holder keeps the braking system pressurized for 2 seconds to allow the driver to move their foot from the brake pedal to the accelerator pedal without the vehicle slipping backwards and without using the parking brake.

Once the accelerator is pressed, the Hill Holder continues to keep the vehicle still for a further 10 seconds or until the engine torque is sufficient to start the vehicle.

ASR/ESP warning light: the warning light flashes when the system cuts in to warn the driver that the ASR system has intervened due to road surface grip conditions. When the control unit detects an error in the ASR or ESP function, it turns on the warning light in fixed mode.

The control unit power supply lines are protected by two special fuses located in the engine compartment junction unit; the ignition-operated supply is protected by a specific fuse in the junction unit under the dashboard.

INPUT SIGNALS:

- Wheel speed sensors (from direct line) (3)
- Brake pedal sensor normally open (from direct line) (4)
- Brake pedal sensor normally closed (from C-CAN line) (5)
- ASR off button (from direct line) (6)
- Engine management control unit (from C-CAN line) (2)
- Throttle angle position (from NCM C-CAN line) (8)
- Body computer (14)
- Handbrake lever position (from C-CAN line)
- Warning light status signal (from C-CAN line) (11)
- Yaw sensor (Z) (rotation of vehicle on vertical axis) (from C-CAN line) (10)
- Lateral acceleration sensor (Y) (from C-CAN line) (10)
- Longitudinal acceleration sensor (X) (from C-CAN line) (10)
- Steering angle/steering wheel rotation sensor in electric steering (from C-CAN line) (12)
- Robotized transmission control unit on versions where fitted (gear engaged status) (from C-CAN line) (13)
- Hydraulic system pressure sensor (from direct line) (1)
- Reverse gear engagement sensor (16)

Med venlig Hilsen, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

 

[MrMogensen]

Short update - haven’t talked with mechanic yet but on my way home I decided to try to continue accelerating past the point when the faults appear.
Up to around 160 km/h plenty of power but then as if the gas cut of for a moment... then seemed like there was no turbo power. Fell down to around 120-130 and seemed unable to accelerate more? From standstill to go it really seemed like the engine was reving up nicely but no “turbo-push”... Shut off engine for 30 seconds and started again... “Turbo” alive again.
Possibly the system turned on “safety mode” or?

 

[aurick86]

The lack of power is related to the map error....
Solve it. Not necessarily the sensor itself... the connectors, wires..etc.

The ESPerror might also cause the power to decrease for a second... but shouldn't affect it to max power after the initial hiccup.

 

[Bernievarian]

I'd concentrate my attention on the turbo moving vane/waste-gate actuator: it seems that yours is 'pushing' too much, hence going in limp mode. What engine is it ??

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

 

[MrMogensen]

Sorry... it’s the wonderful 1,4 T-Jet (120).

 

[Bernievarian]

Sorry... it’s the wonderful 1,4 T-Jet (120).

Then it's a wastegated turbo; check if the parts are free moving, cracks in hoses, EV condition ...

MvH, Bernie

 

[MrMogensen]

Hi again!
Drove past my mechanic. We decided to try the easy MAP sensor switch (made sense in relation to how I experience it when the error pops up + it’s one of the faults on the readout).
We installed the new MAP sensor and reset all faults. Took it for a spin to try and provoke yet another fault... really spanked the little GP T-Jet nearly redlining through 2nd and 3rd gear about 10 times but still no error messages or any sign of lumps in acceleration.
Smelled like warm brakes when I pulled back into the garage. Mechanic laughed because he’d seen the little blue car zoom past his windows on my testruns. He checked the comp readout and no faults!!!
Hopefully I got a little lucky if it really was the MAP sensor itself that was faulty...

Fingers crossed!!!

 

[Thulle]

Re: Yet another HILLHOLDER/ASR fault - but not ABS...

Hello MrMogensen.
I have the same problem as you. Changed the map sensor to a oem part(no alarms), with the result of no turbo boost at all. I then changed it back to the original, witch worked fine for about a week. Then tried a nother oem map sensor, this dit get rid of the alarm messege, but the turbo aint as powerfull as with the original map sensor !
Is it a oem or a original bosch you installed ?
Best regards

 

[Bernievarian]

Re: Yet another HILLHOLDER/ASR fault - but not ABS...

Be aware that there are differently calibrated MAP sensors so the signal received by the ECU might not correspond to the actual manifold pressure, thus the loss of power ...

BRs, Bernie

If someone here helped You fix -or better, understand- your issue, hit the thanks icon @ bottom right corner, it's free and makes us feel helpy ;-)

 

[MrMogensen]

Re: Yet another HILLHOLDER/ASR fault - but not ABS...

Hello MrMogensen.
I have the same problem as you. Changed the map sensor to a oem part(no alarms), with the result of no turbo boost at all. I then changed it back to the original, witch worked fine for about a week. Then tried a nother oem map sensor, this dit get rid of the alarm messege, but the turbo aint as powerfull as with the original map sensor !
Is it a oem or a original bosch you installed ?
Best regards

Sorry for not replying before now. I did not get any message about a new post in this thread...

Just checked under the hood. On the map sensor it just reads "Made in Italy" + some digits so I don't think it's Bosch - they tend to write Bosch on anything thats from them?

 

[edigital]

This another thread where I must start with an apology for reviving it, but I just completely feel at home on this one - my Evo is Danish registered!

I bought a used end 2011 85hp Punto Evo 13 MJT Dynamic (diesel) 140,000km in September. Previously for 3 years I had a 2010 95hp Opel Corsa 340,000km with a similar FIAT multijet diesel engine. I drove the Corsa the entire 3 years with the check engine light on. I had it diagnosed as a glowplug fault but never bothered to fix it - the motor still started well enough first time on icy mornings. 3 years of cheap motoring and in the end brake caliper renewal and clutch renewal and overall poor body condition with rust persuaded me to swap to a lower mileage Punto. I also got a hook on the back of the Punto which is almost essential in Denmark for dealing with furniture swaps and garden waste!

I had picked up a nice set of MEGA alloy wheels a couple of years back for a song which I put on the Corsa. They came oof a Corsa originally and are are ET42 so close to the ET39 I think the Corsa was factory fitted with. Last September I had a nearly new set of Hankook iCept 3 Winter tyres on those alloys when I swapped the Corsa for the Punto and did a deal whereby I kept the wheels and put them on the Punto. Ultimately the Corsa was scrapped. I think the normal offset for 16 inch wheels on the Punto Evo is supposed to be ET45? Anyway they fitted nicely and I have been driving around on them since September.

If I am brutally honest, I think the Hillholder and ESP unavailable messages within a minute or half minute of start up began after the alloys were fitted. At that time, whatever the fault, it also caused the Cruise Control and Auto Start Stop to be deactivated. However if I made it to the motorway, got up to cruise speed and then depressed the clutch and turned off the ignition, then on again and steadily released the clutch, then all was well and no warning messages and I could use cruise control until I got to the next town and started braking and declutching again. Then back came the HH/ESP unavailable messages.

I then noticed that I had an intermittent brake light problem. And like most amateur sleuths turning to the internet, I concluded that my brake light switch was faulty! Long story shortened, six months after buying my Punto, (which I still quite like!) I have just recalibrated the original brake light switch. I have had two different clutch pedal switches to play with also.

Right now I am back to just HH/ESP unavailable soon after start up (goes away if I restart and then returns as soon as I have moved a little). Cruise control still works. Auto start/stop also still works. Brake lights work fine. No sign of low power.

So I am getting close to perfection. Recently the battery was disconnected for most of the weekend, and then just hooked up again. I had the check engine light a couple of times since but it seems to have cured itself. I just read about the steering sensor reset procedure that may help the ESP fault, so I think I will disconnect the battery again tonight and then try the "full right lock, re-center, and full left lock/re-center procedure in the morning.

Any comments welcome, but I will report back tomorrow!