General Will the next Panda be a Fiat?

[SB1500]

The PSA - FCA merger is good in the fact that we’ll finally be able to challenge some big companies like the VAG Group, but I worry that the Italians will give into the PSA group in that they’ll replace Fiat platforms with PSA’s essentially making the next 500 / Panda a flawed C1 / 108 / Aygo monstrosity ... or a 208. And will they ditch the Fiat powertrains also?

I’m thinking if this happens it’ll be time to look toward the Asian makes for me, like Toyota or Mazda B segment or above.

Anybody else thought the same?

 

[chris3234]

Given how fiat it supposed to be well into developing the next panda I doubt it will be anything other then a fiat platform unless they want to write off all the work that have done and start again with PSA base platform

 

[PandaEleganza]

PSA wrote off most of the engineering development work on the next generation Opel/Vauxhall Corsa, now being launched, taking the GM-era body design (which was just about finished) and reworking it for the 208/C3 platform. So perhaps the Panda/500 will be rethought in the same way. The C1/108/Aygo collaboration is apparently ending after the current models have had their run, so there may not be a new smaller car (at least not on the PSA side)

 

[Goudrons]

The C1/108/Aygo collaboration is apparently ending after the current models have had their run, so there may not be a new smaller car (at least not on the PSA side)

I'm not sure that's totally correct, I seem to remember reading Toyota are pulling the Aygo out of the venture with PSA and you'd think the Kolin factory will still need something to make.

With a merger it makes sense a joint small city car venture between FCA and PSA would share platform and engines and be built in the same factory, though I suspect as PSA is part state owned and Fiat will have factories in Italy sitting idle, I reckon both will be fighting for it to be made on their own home soil.

It all doesn't sound promising for FCA, they've got too many ancient platforms, they've invested nothing in tech in the way of hybrid systems, EV's and safety and they've no money as they blew it all on Chrysler, a company in a worst state than themselves.

PSA got shot of the ailing Chrysler Europe in the 80's, now it seems they're getting lumbered with their terminally ill daddy and a headless chicken of a company without two cents to rub together.

 

[Al D]

For me if the 500 and Panda still making money just make them. If they're not I fear the worst.

 

[AAB1992]

For me if the 500 and Panda still making money just make them. If they're not I fear the worst.

I agree, if you think, you can have a basic panda for around circa £7500. The basic engineering costs must be covered in this. So when selling a 500 or higher spec panda for example. The margins must increase, as the cost for additional equipment is offset by the higher list prices.

Base panda’s must offer least profit, whilst high spec 500’s which are still front wheel drive must return the most profit as touch screens, A/C, alloys different seat fabrics won’t cost that much more in basic cost terms.

One point also worth mentioning is the associated assembly costs between Italy and Poland. So again one would think that the polish built 500 is a money maker for fiat and the wider FCA group.

One could imagine that “luxury cars” command greater profit but obviously smaller sales volumes. It’s would be interesting to interrogate the numbers and see how profitable A segment fiat products actually are (margin vs sales volume).

 

[Goudrons]

For me if the 500 and Panda still making money just make them. If they're not I fear the worst.

I don't think it's a simple as that.

Sure they might make money and sell well, but the Panda has already been retested by NCAP and scored 0, how long can they go on before they need major work just to be able to sell them.

As standards have risen they have being left behind, how long is it until they no longer meet minimum standards to be able to sell them in their biggest/only market?
By the looks of things, not long.

The 500 has been around since 2008 and the current Panda since 2012. (but the platform under both dates to 2003)

They are nearly 12 and 8, that's pretty old by car standards and the latest versions only seem to be getting new engines and trim.

It's hard to see them lasting much longer and it does appear Fiat is dragging them out due to the fact they are their biggest sellers.

In Europe the Panda is Fiats best seller, 19th on the list with around 143,000 (sales actually up from 2018) last year, the 500 21st with 130,000 (though this is dropping).

The answer probably will come with a merger.

Same can be said for perhaps another Fiat shortfall, since the demise of the Punto, there's no supermini in their showrooms.
Out of the top 11 biggest sellers in Europe, they haven't a model to compete with 6 of those cars.
2, Clio
3, Polo
5, Corsa
6, C3
8, Fiesta
9, Sandero (beautiful)
11, 208

You'd think with a merger the 208/Corsa might end up with cheaper trim and a Punto sticker on it.

 

[babbo_umbro]

The PSA - FCA merger is good in the fact that we’ll finally be able to challenge some big companies like the VAG Group, but I worry that the Italians will give into the PSA group in that they’ll replace Fiat platforms with PSA’s essentially making the next 500 / Panda a flawed C1 / 108 / Aygo monstrosity ... or a 208. And will they ditch the Fiat powertrains also?

I’m thinking if this happens it’ll be time to look toward the Asian makes for me, like Toyota or Mazda B segment or above.

Anybody else thought the same?

Yes - and no. The only really decent cars that Fiat has made for years are the smallest in the range - this is reflected in their sales volumes, which are fairly healthy despite the age of the basic design (though I can't see the 500 sales keeping up as updates are needed and how do you update cutesy retro?). It would be a great mistake to give reponsibility for the bottom of the range to other areas of the conglomerate.

However, if that should happen there's no way I'd buy a Japanese car

 

[The Pretender]

I don’t see any problem with a Panda on a PSA platform.
Most important will be, that it will not be a Rebadged Peugeot.
If it get it’s own body design and GSE-Firefly Turbo engines, i would be happy enough.
But, it look like the 500 and Panda could grow into B-segment cars.
Apparently the New 500EV will get 10 cm wider as now.

 

[jimboy]

Aye, I don't see a problem. If I was a young driver at the moment I'd be more worried about what's going to happen in the future regarding the internal combustion engine period, especially when it comes down to post code lottery, even before "lecy" vehicles take over, the local councils & government will come up with laws/ideas that will kill the driver who is deemed sporty or a danger on the roads.

It will not happen in my lifetime, but I've had great fun through the decades playing with cars that would not be allowed on the road these days.

 

[SB1500]

Some great discussion here.


After posting, I remembered that "Vauxhall / Open" was only really a brand. Formed of GM parts from the big catalogue they have which PSA can't really use going forward after the current models are replaced. PSA and Fiat merging would be more like PSA and GM merging, a different ballgame. So really, PSA had no choice but to use their own platforms going forward and their own parts bin - probably an improvement over GM in my opinion.


But with Fiat, they have (so I hear) their own engine development, platform development, designers and all the rest (honestly, they ARE there! I know, not too productive lately!). And Fiat, as someone mentioned, fiercely and proudly Italian as PSA are French. They'll be fighting over who uses what. Though, with sales and general appeal to the public I fear PSA will have the stronger position on those matters.


Fiat does do small cars well. My Panda is more like a small 'normal' car, with normal parts. E.g. the parcel shelf, the interior door trims like 'bigger' cars. The Aygo/C1/108 though isn't, to me, a 'real' car miniaturised, it's got interior bodywork showing, a flimsy bit of plastic as a parcel shelf alternative, IKEA flat packed looking rear seats etc.

The bigger companies who rightly focus on their 'bigger' cars and bigger car buyers with a chance of appealing to them do so. They see tiny cars as an after thought and only sell them to check a box and be in the segment. That's why I think PSA and Toyota have their deal to split the cost of the platform. Same with VAG and Curr... its brands, making it worth their time. Fiat lacks this kind of investment power, and we're left with old platforms. Maybe now PSA can do what VAG do and with Fiat, have a huge catalogue of brands and models sharing a modern platform that Fiat so desperately needs. And Fiat can stop trying to do 'bigger' cars, leaving it to the rest of the group.


I suppose we could imagine a tonne of scenarios, but only time will tell. This is just what I think, could be far from reality.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Currently PSA own Vauxhall/opal Citroen/DS and Peugeot.

These are three groups that compete at the same level in the market.

Where as VAG are positioned with cheap to expensive brands Seat at the bottom, Skoda, volkswagen, AUDI, porsche, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti.

They have a huge spread of brands from the bottom to the very top of the market. They are very good at managing the hierarchy of their brands and they make cars that fit well into each segment and price point (whether you like them or not) adding Fiat on its own to PSA does little to diversify the portfolio. And they are still trying to sell their own cars within a small portion of the market.

Really what PSA gain from this is access to the more luxurious brands with a pedigree such as alfa, lancia, maseriti, Peugeot and the French in general are very good at making a very luxurious car, but not one buys them as they hold no gravitas, combine the French styling and love of luxury with a brand like Lancia, alfa Romeo or maseriti and you would be in for a real treat with some truly stunning cars.

 

[PandaEleganza]

The real gain for PSA is surely less Alfa/Lancia/Maserati than Jeep and also access to the US market. Fiat's Latin American strength is probably also useful for them.

I imagine that Fiat will survive in Europe in some form but only making the 500/Panda. The retro styling of the 500 sets it apart from the other PSA products, while the Panda recast in the mould of the Centoventi concept is also sufficiently different. I wonder if the small (EMP?) PSA platform can handle 4x4? It would be a mistake to lose the 4x4 Panda.

 

[The Pretender]

The present Panda is the most beautiful till to date, IMHO, the 141A the most iconic.
If the rumored facelift Panda will be a improvement, ?? future will tell.
I hope for some new Bumper design and it is rumored it will get a big Uconnect screen.
I'm no fan of the Centoventi, i don't like it, do not hope it will transform into a Panda.
The Centoventi should transform into a new B-segment Punto.

 

[Leroypanda]

All the 'new' panda and 500 need is a decent interior refresh, (lets be honest the plastics in the panda is pretty pants), french seats ( my citroen work van is the comfiest thing ever), and french suspension.

 

[babbo_umbro]

...

It will not happen in my lifetime, but I've had great fun through the decades playing with cars that would not be allowed on the road these days.

Likewise - my best was a lower, wider Fiat 500 with the flat-twin engine from a BMW 700 in the back.

 

[puntofan01]

If the PSA and Toyota partnership does end, then something that could work in Fiats' favour is their 1.0 Firefly engine, as that could replace the Toyota 1.0 currently used in the C1, 108 and I believe it's also used in the 208. Fiat also has its TwinAir and MultiJet engines, which could be useful to PSA. I did see a thread on here saying that the bloke in charge of Fiat recognises that they need a Punto replacement, which could go on the PSA platform, as long it's still able to use Fiat engines.

 

[gar074]

TwinAir is a busted flush, now that its inflated economy claims have been shown to be nothing but hot air.

 

[Motorcyclist Colin]

TwinAir is a busted flush, now that its inflated economy claims have been shown to be nothing but hot air.

I love the Twin Air motor and don't give a monkeys about the economy. Quite happy to buy a bit more juice just for the noise and performance of this engine, In any event I wanted a little 4x4 Fiat ever since I saw a Sisley somewhere running rings around big ("posh") 4x4s.
I have lost count of how many cars(and bikes) I have owned and driven over the years, and it is clear that" one mans meat is another man's poison". For example the worst car I ever owned was a Scimitar and the best, either a "knife edge style" 1600cc VW Scirocco or an E93A engine Ford Popular that cost me £5 (and a lot of work---but no expense--I was penniless at the time)
So----Make of that what you will

 

[puntofan01]

TwinAir is a busted flush, now that its inflated economy claims have been shown to be nothing but hot air.

To be fair, isn't that the same story for all modern cars?