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Technical Which electric ignition kit?

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Technical Which electric ignition kit?

Hi usaf,

I've played with distributors and ignitions for a while now and can recommend any of the 123ignition products. They are well made by a bunch of Dutch car enthusiasts for all manner of vehicles and sold worldwide.

There are a number of alternatives available to you:

1) Keep the old Kettering points ignition. Worn points and dud condensers make this setup the least reliable.

No picture - not worth the trouble :)

2) Replace the points with a Hall effect device. These fit on your distributor baseplate and use magnetic switching rather than points. You can ditch your condenser though you are still relying on the mechanical or vacuum advance as well as the cap/rotor of your original distributor. A cheap and effective option.

See attached photo.

3) 123ignition distributor plus rotor plus cap. A nice new distributor that you can use with your existing coil. Easy to install and setup. Looks like it belongs in the car. I have this in my 500 as well as my other old cars.

http://mrfiat.com/italian/fiat/fiat.../fiat-500-126-electronic-distributor-new.html

4) 123ignition capless conversion. Fits on your old distributor shaft and uses a twin coil 'wasted spark' setup. Once again easy to install and setup though you are using your old distributor and if the shaft is worn you may experience problems. You need to buy a coil with a double HT output.

http://mrfiat.com/italian/fiat/fiat...-500-126-electronic-123-ignition-kit-new.html

5) Remote pickup using crank angle sensor. This is the most complex system and looks the most foreign in the engine compartment. I have no experience with this setup, though it should work OK - all new cars use this type of technology.

http://mrfiat.com/italian/fiat/fiat...onic-ignition-distributor-module-kit-new.html

What would I recommend? Having played with all on various cars except option #5 , I settled on #3 and haven't been disappointed.

Let me know what you think,

Chris

PS: If you end up keeping part or all of your old distributor and if required, buy yourself a new cap, rotor and/or coil.
 

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Clearly Chris you rate the 123 distributor highly. I have been considering purchasing one for a while now but they are not the cheapest things around.

What differences are really noticeable when you have one fitted, is it just a smoother tick over or overall better running? I know getting rid of the condensor is a major plus point as they do have a tendency to fail.

I have read differing reports on the hall effect electronic ignition units that appear to be mass produced in China. Ricambio in the UK are not the biggest fans, they say they don't last very long and are prone to failure.

Tony
 
Hi Tony,

Yes the 123 products are not cheap but, in my hands at least, they are very reliable.

I fitted a Hall effect switch to my old Alfa about 6 or 7 years ago and drove it without trouble until the mechanical advance started to play up. I bought it from Hot Spark (http://www.hot-spark.com/) and still have it lying around somewhere. Rather than rebuild my old distributor, I splashed out on a 123ignition around 3 years ago and have been using it ever since.

When I restored my 500, I initially fitted a Hall effect switch from the same guys but was so impressed with the 123 in the Alfa that I bought one for the Fiat as well.

I'm currently restoring another even older Alfa (glutton for punishment) and have fitted an Accuspark Hall effect switch to the Lucas distributor. This distributor has been completely rebuilt, including the vacuum advance. I'll probably keep this one as it looks original and the car will get very little use - it'll be at least a year before it's on the road ... :D

For me the advantages are no points, no condenser, reliable advance curve, ease of set up and build quality. The cars start easily and idle smoothly. They rev without flat spots though this is also down to rebuilt and properly tuned carbies.

I've always hated points and condensers - they are one of the weakest parts of the ignition system - and I take any opportunity to dump them. As a result I've got a cupboard full of old distributors.

Sorry to hear about the dud Hall effect units as this is the cheapest modification. But if they are failing too regularly then it's no improvement at all.

Chris
 
I have a 123 in my Fiat500R and another in one of my Alfa 1600s. The Fiat I'd much easier to start and runs smoothly at low rpm, compared to the original distributor. The Alfa was similarly improved. I investigated the hall effect conversion before I got the 123 and at the time, the web discussions indicated some filing and jimmying was necessary to get it to fit. Maybe that's been corrected now, and $60 is certainly a lot cheaper than $300. or so, so it might be worth trying, but I'm not sorry I put in the 123 at all.
 
Because these devices are not cheap and before anyone spends any money, please wait for a few more replies to your question. There may be other people out there with either further supporting or contrary experiences and advice.

As to shaft play, it comes in 3 main forms. Axial where the shaft moves up and down, radial where the shaft moves side to side and rotational where the shaft moves in a rotary fashion. Most old distributors will have a little end (axial) play and a millimeter is usually not a problem. However they should have no obvious radial or abnormal rotational play.

Radial play due to either a worn shaft or casing can destroy the rotor/cap if there is a lot of it or possibly even result in binding of the shaft in the casing with even more disastrous results. Excessive radial play will cause your timing to move around considerably resulting in poor starting, rough running and general engine misbehaviour. This is the commonest problem with old distributors - a shaft rattling around in an eccentrically worn housing.

Rotational play, for example due to worn drive gears or engagement dog, will usually manifest as difficulty starting and rough running. Fairly obviously the rotor should rotate, but you can assess wear by gently wiggling the rotor without enough force to cause the upper part of the distributor shaft to move on the lower shaft baseplate containing the advance mechanism.

If you are restoring your 45-50 year old engine, get your distributor looked at as well. Depending on the availability of parts, particularly those sintered bronze bushes, it might be more economical to repair it though you'll still have to put up with points and condensers, which for me, is where it all started a few years ago ...:bang:

Chris
 
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I'm really surprised how many owners see the need to change to electronic ignition- at the risk of sounding like a cave dweller the standard points and condenser work just fine..
I have driven a couple of 500's with 123 systems and really couldn't pick any noticeable difference.
The 126 dual outlet coil is a good upgrade however as it allows you to do away with the rotor and distributor cap which usually wear unevenly, can short out with moisture and reduce the efficiency of the system.
Both my 500F's have points distributors and have never caused me any trouble as daily drivers in over 50,000km- maintenance consists of a small smear of grease on the distributor cam and spray lube of the advance mechanism annually.
Most points problems are caused by insufficient lubrication of the cam which causes wear and closing of gap until timing and dwell are out- 500's are pretty tolerant as there is plenty of dwell with only 2 cylinders to fire.
Don't be tempted to buy cheap condensors- good quality ones cost less than $10 and last around 10 years in my experience. Buy 2 and keep a spare in your toolkit, Fiat provided all the tools you need to change one in the kit and I would rather spend 5 minutes changing a condenser on the roadside rather than call for a tow when an electronic ignition decides not to ignite anymore...
 
Some very good "points" well made Damon. I was curious more than anything on whether people noticed any massive improvements. But you have convinced me that on this little car that it is a luxury rather than a necessity.

I used to drive my 500 on a daily basis into London to work and back, probably about 30 miles round trip a day for 4 years and I don't ever recall having any issues with the ignition side of things. The only problems I had were mostly related to the carb where I could limp home, a burst wheel brake cylinder and a broken accelerator cable but I still managed to get home on each occasion without assistance.

Tony
 
There always seem to be two types of approach on subjects like this. It is somewhat like the arguments around upgraded engines, rack and opinion steering and disc brakes. Car owners have been making changes like that since cars were invented and good luck to them(y).

I can understand people making any changes which improve safety and reliability so that they can get better use from the car. Personally I like the challenge of making old parts function as they should have done when new. If that means re-furbishing a distributor I have no problem with it.

I like the specs. for the kit which includes a catalytic convertor with lambda sensor, there is no doubt this would make the car run better and the engine last longer but at what point would my car stop being my little antique Fiat?
 
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Happy to play devil's advocate :devil: on this one- automotive electronics can be very beneficial in the right time and place.
Chris's comments on most old distributors are often accurate- my mother's Vauxhall Chevette was transformed into semi reliability by a Lumenition optical ignition kit back in the early '80's.
I happen to despise carburettors as much as Chris hates distributors- especially if there are two or more on the same engine! I converted my Alfasud from twin Webers to Bosch L Jetronic fuel injection which enhanced its driveability and economy immensely.
Reversible modifications which improve reliability are definitely worth pursuing. If you can justify the 123 system- fit it and you will be happy, however a properly adjusted distributor should keep your 500 buzzing along with little effort!:)
 
My original post was to answer a question. To that end I think I succeeded and I hope that the information has been useful.

And yes, I don't like points/condensors probably because of a few dud ones in the past.

I also like to remove my distributor to change and set the points, so not having to do this is another bonus for me.

Finally, having spent a lot of time and effort building a nice balanced, ported 695 with an expensive tuned carby, sports cam etc. etc. I guess I wanted to have a trouble free set-and-forget ignition system. The 123 has performed faultlessly on my Alfa and I'm happy with it on the Fiat but this option will not be for everyone.

As to carbies - downdraft Weber on the 1957 Alfa, Dellorto on the 1967 Fiat and twin Webers on the 1970 Alfa - love 'em, mainly because they are visual art as well as functional, quality pieces of engineering.

So you see, there is still a bit of Luddite in my veins :D

Now, where did I put that old Model T magneto ...

Chris
 
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