Technical Where to Place Jack Stands on Fiat Punto 1.2 Petrol?

[JMaia]

Hi all,
I need to lift my Fiat Punto 1.2 petrol to change the oil. I’ll use a scissor jack at the marked jacking points, but I’m unsure where to place the jack stands afterward since they can’t go in the same spot. I’ve attached three photos of the undercarriage for reference:
Photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3
Can anyone suggest safe spots for the jack stands? Thanks!

 

[The Panda Nut]

If you use a piece of hard wood to spread the load I would use either of the parts in photo 2, with two large round holes in them. The black sub frame is strong and the white under chassis member behind the wheels is where worshop jacking would be done Make sure any wood used is not going to split under load as it wouldnt be much use spreading the load if it did. I use a jack pad of thick rubber from eBay for a few £ as well.
Dont jack the vehicle under any rear axle beams as these may bend under load and wreck the rear suspension / wheel alignment.

 

[JMaia]

If you use a piece of hard wood to spread the load I would use either of the parts in photo 2, with two large round holes in them. The black sub frame is strong and the white under chassis member behind the wheels is where worshop jacking would be done Make sure any wood used is not going to split under load as it wouldnt be much use spreading the load if it did. I use a jack pad of thick rubber from eBay for a few £ as well.
Dont jack the vehicle under any rear axle beams as these may bend under load and wreck the rear suspension / wheel alignment.

Thank you! I'll source two pieces of hardwood. I assumed the car had designated jack stand points underneath.

 

[The Panda Nut]

There will be two similar braces on the floor at the rear of car in front of the rear wheels. These are used when the car is built as it moves through the assembly line and by Fiat worshops. The mini cross brace is the best place but the subframe can be used. Its mainly common sence to support in a way that sees the weight spread and that jack or stands stand vertical and bear the weight squarely. Changing thr oils, you need tge car level so it all drains. I find just raising the body, without removing wheels can give jusy enough clearance. Pugget Auld Jock did an excellent post or guide on good ways to raise a car which is definitely worth a good read.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

You don't need a jacks to change the oil (both engine and gearbox)!
You do it flat on the ground. Lay in front of the car and reach to the drain plug (12 mm "allen key"), that's all.
There is enough space to put there a hand, tools and oil drain pan (improvise, cut it from the 5-liter plastic container).

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

You don't need a jacks to change the oil (both engine and gearbox)!
You do it flat on the ground. Lay in front of the car and reach to the drain plug (12 mm "allen key"), that's all.
There is enough space to put there a hand, tools and oil drain pan (improvise, cut it from the 5-liter plastic container).

Or, get a length of wood roughly the height of a pavement kerb and chamfer off one end so it's like a ramp. A couple of thicknesses of scaffolding plank works well. Then place it so you can drive one front wheel onto the kerb while the other runs up onto the piece of wood. You can then get underneath in the gutter with plenty of room - I've even changed clutches on RWD stuff like Ford Cortina/Escort and others in this way.

Here's a link to the guide mentioned above: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/r...e-cars-some-thoughts-and-observations.503811/ Just be careful when jacking on the sills, even using the designated jacking points, because, on older vehicles there may be weakening due to rust which can cause the sill to collapse. I always very carefully watch when I'm doing this and take it slowly to start with. If the sill seems to be giving or "nasty" creaking sounds are heard then i quickly let it down again. I would prefer to jack on one of the box sections under the car - but never on a flat floor section - it'll just deform.

 

[JMaia]

You don't need a jacks to change the oil (both engine and gearbox)!
You do it flat on the ground. Lay in front of the car and reach to the drain plug (12 mm "allen key"), that's all.
There is enough space to put there a hand, tools and oil drain pan (improvise, cut it from the 5-liter plastic container).

Great, so i bought the jack stands for nothing lol. I'm gonna order a 12 mm allen key (for some strange reason I don't find it on local shops) and gonna give it a try. Thanks for the help.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

We don't need your pictures of the car's underneath...there is better one already.
https://www.fiatforum.com/gallery/fiat-grande-punto-underneath.130474/ !

Basic jacking points are...pointed by triangles. So in general this area should be lifted and supported.

You should support big area, avoid small (pointy) contact. And metal-metal. Put something to protect the underneath paint. Piece of paper, plastic, rubber sheet, whatever. Use multiple points. Jack + jack-stand. Green areas/spots are jacking points and indicate support area (as big as possible).

This is wrong way, even if it's correct spot (but area is too small, you will bend the metal if your jack/stand end is barely bigger than the holes).

Brand new car will take an abuse and you can jack it almost anywhere. But don't do it with the old car like Grande (16-17 years old on average).
Frame/beam/axle (front, rear) can be partially supported, not 100% load. So you can jack the car by green areas, then add more points in the red ones.

What makes the jacking spots good or bad? Body design, how the load is spread, are there any structural parts near/close enough.

Best "jack stands" are just big wooden blocks! Example (not the best example for beginners of how to jack the car, but shows proper size of the wood).

Your support areas, pads are already bent up, compromised. This is typical damage done to the cars (even by "pro" mechanics - they don't care).

Healthy car (body, corrosion) can be judged by how the car is behaving when you jack it (one of the wheels). Check the doors (can you open/close them all without issue).

 

[JMaia]

When using my scissor jack on the triangle spot, I cannot use jack stands simultaneously, as the scissor jack already occupies that space.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Wrong. You can! Those spots ▲ are not precise, I mean narrow.
You have a room to put there a bottle/scissor jack and the jack stand (or wood block).
"Triangles" Δ are not points, but general areas. You don't have to be exactly below triangle.

Most important detail... You are using wrong type of scissor jack. The "business end" is too tall (too deep). You are damaging the floor/panel/tunnel/skirt/sill (or whatever you call it in English)! Red spots. You suppose to push on the green part! But your jack is not touching the car there (visible gap)...

This whole area should be reinforced (in theory), but we are talking about old car here... This way, you'll puncture a hole one day...

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

When using my scissor jack on the triangle spot, I cannot use jack stands simultaneously, as the scissor jack already occupies that space.

This is a problem which often comes up, especially when working on a vehicle you're not familiar with.

If you only have the scissor jack then you're really restricted to jacking up at the triangle points. Please remember also that the higher you jack it up the more unstable it becomes and may then fall off the jack. Better to jack it up just enough to get one of the stands, with a flat piece of wood on top, under one of the box sections. Then take the jack round to the other side and jack it up until you can get a stand under a box section on that side. If you need to go higher then just take it up to the next "notch" on the stand, lock the stand off and take the jack round to the other side and take it up. The "trick" is to do it a bit at a time on either side until it's high enough for what you want to do. Oh, and don't jack up on loose or unstable surfaces, especially with a scissor type jack because they rely on the tyre on the other side of the vehicle being able to grip the ground to stop the car going sideways. When it's time to let it down then take it a bit at a time on either side - it can fall off the jack just as easy on the way down as it can on the way up!

 

[JMaia]

Most important detail... You are using wrong type of scissor jack. The "business end" is too tall (too deep). You are damaging the floor/panel/tunnel/sill (or whatever you call it in English)! Red spots. You suppose to push on the green part! But your jack is not touching the car there (visible gap)...

I'm confused, I'm using the scissor jack that came with the car, how am I supposed to use it then?

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Use it. But remember this forum and thread. Original jack is designed with good (no corrosion) car in mind (not 15-20 years old).
Factory can make a mistake too, bad design (things are not perfect - not perfectly matched). So original jack can be bad (not optimal).

Scissor jacks come in different types, the ends are deep or shallow (or flat - this is bad also). There is no "standard".
Google (Images) "car scissor jack" (how many variations are there).
In old car you should use less deep type. Not scratching the paint/protection from such big area (red on the last posted picture).
There was advice before, to put something (paper, foil, rubber) in-between the jack and the car. Avoid metal-to-metal contact.

Mentioned underneath photo is a good example of how cars are compromised by improper jacking. This was probably a factory picture, prototype(?). It is already damaged, protection scraped, scratched using lift with bare metal pads (instead of rubber). And the jacking points are not optimal of course. You canNOT trust factory blindly (what they do, what they provide with the car may not be ideal).

By the way. Even if I'm wrong, there is another lesson here: if you work on cars (or anything mechanical, electrical etc.), you must pay attention to details like that. Even if it's not a problem here (jacking specifics), you must see such things (where the jack is pushing, how), spot the potential problem.
Instead just jacking the car like a monkey (jack is for jacking, so I just crank it, car goes up, what can go "wrong" here - a lot)...

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Use it. But remember this forum and thread. Original jack is designed with good (no corrosion) car in mind (not 15-20 years old).
Factory can make a mistake too, bad design (things are not perfect - not perfectly matched). So original jack can be bad (not optimal).

Scissor jacks come in different types, the ends are deep or shallow (or flat - this is bad also). There is no "standard".
Google (Images) "car scissor jack" (how many variations are there).
In old car you should use less deep type. Not scratching the paint/protection from such big area (red on the last posted picture).
There was advice before, to put something (paper, foil, rubber) in-between the jack and the car. Avoid metal-to-metal contact.

Mentioned underneath photo is a good example of how cars are compromised by improper jacking. This was probably a factory picture, prototype(?). It is already damaged, protection scraped, scratched using lift with bare metal pads (instead of rubber). And the jacking points are not optimal of course. You canNOT trust factory blindly (what they do, what they provide with the car may not be ideal).
View attachment 467325

By the way. Even if I'm wrong, there is another lesson here: if you work on cars (or anything mechanical, electrical etc.), you must pay attention to details like that. Even if it's not a problem here (jacking specifics), you must see such things (where the jack is pushing, how), spot the potential problem.
Instead just jacking the car like a monkey (jack is for jacking, so I just crank it, car goes up, what can go "wrong" here - a lot)...

Our OP (JMaia) only has the jack that came with the vehicle - which is exactly the same as the one supplied by Fiat that came with our Panda by the way - see here on the third page of my guide: https://www.fiatforum.com/guides/ra...bservations.922/page/raising-the-vehicle.879/ I show 3 different variations of scissors jack the black scissors type came with the Panda, the other single leg one is a standard VAG item which is supplied with many of their vehicles. It's possibly the most unstable example I've ever used but has the one saving grace that it has a nylon saddle where it contacts the sill. The red one was supplied with a spare wheel kit we bought for the Mazda and is a terrible design. The "claw" ends, where it engages with the sill, couldn't be better designed to remove paint and cause damage. I didn't use it and got a more suitable one from the breakers. There's a picture of the Fiat jack on our Panda's sill and you can see it's got the same problem as JMaia is experiencing, the weight of the car is being taken on the curved sill panel not the reinforced "tab"/sill seam. However I have tried it out while showing my wife how to change a wheel (which she told me she's never going to attempt) and it took the car's weight without any problems.

Can I ask you, JMaia, whether you are going to be doing more by way of maintaining your car? If so then buying one of those smaller trolley jacks and a "sill puck" would be an excellent investment. Frankly I think scissors type jacks are just too dangerous for an inexperienced person to use and someone with experience probably wouldn't use one anyway!

Edit. The picture of the jack saddle in contact with the Panda sill is on the previous page in my guide: https://www.fiatforum.com/guides/ra...22/page/getting-it-up-in-the-air-cheaply.878/

 

[Twotone2]

I’ve just changed the oil in my wife’s 4x4 TA Panda (2nd oil change) and it’s a bloody stressful job to get the car up high enough to get to the sump plug and to remove the steel plate below the sump.

I’m a plumber and heating engineer so I’m used to lifting and working with heavy items but a lifting a car is another whole world of doing it.

I follow @Pugglt Auld Jock excellent guide and have bought a trolley jack and axle stands but it’s still far from easy personally I’d love a lift or a pit but obviously not practical now for me but if I was younger and doing something like repair/service my own cars then that’s the way I’d go.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I’ve just changed the oil in my wife’s 4x4 TA Panda (2nd oil change) and it’s a bloody stressful job to get the car up high enough to get to the sump plug and to remove the steel plate below the sump.

I’m a plumber and heating engineer so I’m used to lifting and working with heavy items but a lifting a car is another whole world of doing it.

I follow @Pugglt Auld Jock excellent guide and have bought a trolley jack and axle stands but it’s still far from easy personally I’d love a lift or a pit but obviously not practical now for me but if I was younger and doing something like repair/service my own cars then that’s the way I’d go.

Ramps can be a good solution for stuff like oil changes, exhaust work, and anything else where you don't need to take wheels off, but check out that they have long enough run ups that they don't foul the front valance/bumper - I've mentioned about this in the guide.

 

[JMaia]

Thank you very much for all the suggestions. I’ve recently started trying to do some basic maintenance on my car, especially since, for some strange reason, mechanics often don’t use the correct oil and either do things poorly or ignore specific requests (like not replacing the filter even when I explicitly ask for it).


I’m trying to do things properly now, as it seems risky to work under the car without proper safety measures. I also plan to change the transmission oil in the future. At the moment, I’m just waiting for the tool to arrive so I can open the oil drain plug. Once it gets here, I’ll try lifting the car again and will keep you updated.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

In general, use multiple support points (minimum 2-3, typically). That's all (long story short).
Scissor jack + jack stand (and/or wood blocks) + throw a wheel (if the job involves removing it) under the car.
Level, stable ground (concrete, tarmac/asphalt). Block the wheels (so car will not roll forward or backward).

Example. Simple front suspension job (swaybar, drop-links), 3 points (scissor, wood, wood). Without going under the car.
If you slide under, secure it better (more supports, including wheels as a fail-safe).

Bad example, how NOT to use wood...

Source (found via Google images): https://www.homemadetools.net/forum/dangerous-car-jacking-lumber-photo-73527

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

In general, use multiple support points (minimum 2-3, typically). That's all (long story short).
Scissor jack + jack stand (and/or wood blocks) + throw a wheel (if the job involves removing it) under the car.
Level, stable ground (concrete, tarmac/asphalt). Block the wheels (so car will not roll forward or backward).

Example. Simple front suspension job (swaybar, drop-links), 3 points (scissor, wood, wood). Without going under the car.
If you slide under, secure it better (more supports, including wheels as a fail-safe).

Bad example, how NOT to use wood...
View attachment 467588
Source (found via Google images): https://www.homemadetools.net/forum/dangerous-car-jacking-lumber-photo-73527

With regard to that last pic, of course you don't get any brains until you get the third stripe! There's so much wrong stuff going on here I just wouldn't know where to start!

I just love that sill too and the "mini" wooden wheel chocks.