Modern aircraft are not exactly immune, Boeing 737
| Hull-losses: | 234 | |
|---|---|---|
| Hull-loss accidents: | 215 | with a total of 4928 fatalities |
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737 is not exactly modern tech it's been in service since the lightning.
Also that represents 0.02% of every 737 that has ever entered service.
The Figure for the lightning is 50 lost of 334 to crashes so 15%...
It was the Boeing max I was thinking about mostly, with known software issues and trying to blame the pilot etc.
First point, That's a concord not a lightning.
second point that is a 3 man crew aircraft with 4 engines and the ability to super cruise where as the lightning only has a a crew of 1 and is not able to super cruise. then on top of that yeah the concord will have controls there for 4 engines, 4 lots of engine monitoring gauges (all down the middle of the dash. there are two sets of duplicated controls for the captain left and first officer on the right. the controls for the auto pilot along the top.
throttles in the middle, trims to the left of the throttles, radio kit behind the throttles, everything on the right handside behind the seats is the flight engineers desk. while all those buttons and dials look like a lot, they are much the same as any commercial jet still flying today.
The lightning is not a pressurized aircraft and therefore does not have the fatigue concerns with pressurization cycles of a commercial jet.
Concord first flew in what 69? didn't enter service till the 70s so it really wasn't 50s tech, you are comparing apples and pairs here.
Look this is the cockpit of a hawker hunter a jet aircraft of which there are several in private ownership and still flying in the UK
This is a English Electric Lightning
What does this prove about the complexity of the aircraft. Really nothing at all. The hunter on the face of things would appear to be much more complex, yet this is allowed and is a mach 1.3 aircraft, where as the lightning appears less complex and is a Mach 2.2 aircraft?
The hunter is older and by your definition more complex due to those older components.
If I told you though that I can look at the dash of the Hunter and pick out all the same gauges and dials in pretty much the same places that you would find them in a Cessna 172 you'd probably not believe me. obviously your average Cessna doesn't have all the switches and buttons for guns and ordinance.
As is shown in the documentary every time the CAA set a rule and they where able to meet it with the lightning, they then changed the regulations again so the people wanting to keep the lightning flying could never meet what the CAA wanted.
The other issue with mass produced aircraft is they have to be authorized by the manufacturers for use I'e on a plane like a cessna 172, Cessna set the rules by which the plane has to be maintained to be air worthy and on an aircraft like this, they have to have parts supplied by the manufacturer. BAe I believe are now the people who "own" the lightning and if they don't want to deregulate the lightning and they don't supply new parts then it will not be able to fly end of.
honestly not as complicated as you would think. lost of the buttons and switches are specific to systems in that aircraft and pilots have type approval usually for one specific aircraft so they are the specialists and literally know everything about that plane.
most of the old "steam" gauges in old aircraft are well known and understood by virtually anyone who has ever done flight training.
The MCAS system fault in the Max 8 was the making of boeing.It was the Boeing max I was thinking about mostly, with known software issues and trying to blame the pilot etc.
They fitted much bigger engines that hung below the wings and when in full throttle they could cause the plane to pitch upward. Boeing did not want to have to get approval for a new systems installed a little sensor that if the nose lifted unexpectedly, the plane would automatically pitch the nose back down again.
There was no back up for this one single sensor so if it went faulty it left pilots fighting to keep the nose up as the plane would want to pitch down all the time.
Really there should have been multiple back ups and it should have been documented with a proceedure to deal with the sensor becoming faulty but boeing wanted to sell aircraft and airlines don't like to have to retrain pilots so basically boeing lied and fudged things.
Agreed. However the newer stuff is all screen based with multi function selections. - like my Scala - Ha Ha
I know it's all backed up in redundancy terms, but what happens if the screen itself fails?
I suppose what it comes down to is how comfortable you are with strapping yourself into an aircraft that's 70 years old, has 0 spare parts availability, all the people who knew who to operate and fly them are retired or dead a reasonable number of them killed by the aircraft and going to Mach 2.5 in it.
For me while it would be cool...erm yeah I see why they wouldn't let you do that.
Even it not being pressurised, ok you now have to fly it in a space suit given the operational ceiling is what 88000 feet? So have to add that to the list of things to be checked and certified.
Even thunder city no longer fly them as oddly enough one caught fire and crashed due to maintenance issues..
Last thing I can find referencing the thundercity planes.
theaviationgeekclub.com
Actually no..
Still on the ground last year.
www.key.aero
Thunder city had what about 9 planes and lost 2 in fatal accidents?
For me while it would be cool...erm yeah I see why they wouldn't let you do that.
Even it not being pressurised, ok you now have to fly it in a space suit given the operational ceiling is what 88000 feet? So have to add that to the list of things to be checked and certified.
Even thunder city no longer fly them as oddly enough one caught fire and crashed due to maintenance issues..
Last thing I can find referencing the thundercity planes.
Hangar 51 company buys Thunder City collection of Ex-Military Jets
Hangar 51 company buys Thunder City collection of Ex-Military Jets and aims to use it for Adversary Air Services
theaviationgeekclub.com
Actually no..
Still on the ground last year.
Thunder City jets - the future
After many years lying dormant, a famous collection of Cold War-era jet aircraft is finally on the move
Thunder city had what about 9 planes and lost 2 in fatal accidents?
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There are a huge number of planes flying every day that parts are no longer available for and are even older where people literally making their own spare parts.
Technically speaking anyone can build their own aircraft to what ever design they choose they just have to follow the rules and regulations laid down by the CAA
I know people who have planes powered by beetle engines and built out of wood and canvas.
I have no idea what is needed to be worn by pilots in the lightning the ceiling on wiki is officially 60k feet with a zoom ceiling of 70k feet but that I presume is reached by firing the plane straight up till it stalls due to the density of the atmosphere no longer being thick enough for the engine to work, basically throwing it the last 10k feet and it falling back down again. Time at that height would be short lived, and at 60k feet I believe you can cope with just the normal oxygen mask most fighter pilots wear?
I wasn’t aware of this a Quick Look it would seem the aircraft that crashed had a hydraulic failure and when the pilot tried to eject the ejector seat didn’t work… an investigation found massive fallings in thunder city’s operating practices and took away their licences to operate so they couldn’t really continue even if they wanted to. The fleet then got sold off.Even thunder city no longer fly them as oddly enough one caught fire and crashed due to maintenance issues..
Last thing I can find referencing the thundercity planes.
Hangar 51 company buys Thunder City collection of Ex-Military Jets
Hangar 51 company buys Thunder City collection of Ex-Military Jets and aims to use it for Adversary Air Services
Actually no..
Still on the ground last year.
Thunder City jets - the future
After many years lying dormant, a famous collection of Cold War-era jet aircraft is finally on the move
In the documentary one of the main issues with the lightning was the “package” they crammed two massive engines together in a tube, sat a pilot on top and as an after thought fitted a couple of thin wings to give it some ability to control.
Everything else needed to operate as an aircraft was crammed in around the engines and so not unlike any modern car it was an engine out job for even the most basic task.
If someone said, do you want a go in one a two seater with an instructor then F… year I’d be in there like a bullet, but all the concerns about safety are valid. Still even in the hands of the most skilled private pilot, it is still very much like putting a 17 year old in a Lamborghini, it is however still a shame that we could not keep historic aircraft like this flying in the uk even under strict guidance and flown by RAF pilots.
Russia is still flying all their Cold War era aircraft
Well, officially I don't think the lightning could intercept Concorde or the U2 or the SR71 going by the instruction manual.
However the records state it caught Concorde with a zoom climb up to 88000ft...and then accelerated past in a dive which also took it past it's official top speed.
The none-functional ejector seat brings up another point. Most CAA registered jets either have no ejector seats or seats rendered none functional. Do you fancy flying a jet with 70 year old ejection seats and the low speed characteristics of a block of flats? Given they have a crash rate worse than 1 in 10...
It's absolutely a shame there's none flying..it's absolutely the best thing in terms of pilot and people on the ground safety...it's up there with why you aren't allowed functional guns on demobbed tanks.
However the records state it caught Concorde with a zoom climb up to 88000ft...and then accelerated past in a dive which also took it past it's official top speed.
The none-functional ejector seat brings up another point. Most CAA registered jets either have no ejector seats or seats rendered none functional. Do you fancy flying a jet with 70 year old ejection seats and the low speed characteristics of a block of flats? Given they have a crash rate worse than 1 in 10...
It's absolutely a shame there's none flying..it's absolutely the best thing in terms of pilot and people on the ground safety...it's up there with why you aren't allowed functional guns on demobbed tanks.
very few things could intercept concord because of concords ability to super cruise, that is to say it could maintain faster than the speed of sound flight without running reheat/afterburners. even if you could catch up with it you'd not stay with it for long.
Even the SR71 could not do this. the concord was truely a mavel of engineering, and the russian concordski TU-144 had to run full afterburners all the time to maintain super sonic flight.
The U2 is highly specialist and while it can get up to super high altitudes it cannot manover like a fast jet, it takes ages to get up to altitude and cannot quickly descend either. It is more like a glider with a jet engine. The massive wing gives it lift at those very high heights
something like a lightning could throw itself up to around 70k feet and then maybe lob a rocket at a U2 if it so desired I suspect, to which the U2 would have no answer.
That being said the U2s ceiling is still protected and we know the speed of the lightning is open to interpretation so maybe the altitude is a little fuzzy also. Its not uncommon for example for the US to overexaggerate the abilities of its military..
You can survive at high altitudes for short periods and given the rate at which the lightning would drink fuel, anything would be a short period. as I said before and as is fitted to pretty much all fast jets you have oxygen.
The U2 cockpit is pressurized but if it depressurizes at high altitude you can't just drop like a stone, so that's why they wear space suits to fly it. you would be subjected to a long period in a very low pressure.
There was something I was watching recently in the UK where they were trying to get some rights from the CAA to get this jet flying, can't remember what it wasn't anything from Europe. But the main limiting factor was getting the explosives for the ejector seat. you need all sorts of licenses and permissions to carry explosives, ship explosives etc etc and so they simply could not get the parts for the ejector seat and so CAA said nope you can't fly.
specifically though there are the likes of the Hunter that is allowed, there are a number of other jets that the CAA allow, all of which have the same issues. old, lack of parts, able to go faster than sound, able to travel very high etc. etc. Its just the lightning went one step further than all of them and still out strips even the most modern jets. its a bit humiliating when bob from the pub can go quicker and higher than the RAF.
I suspect the RAF and the government did not want the lightning to be available to fly to anyone over UK airspace and put the thumb screws on the CAA to make sure it didn't happen.
It never could outrun a ground to air or air to air missile though...so the whole "intercept" argument was moot as the plane predated full ECM packages etc so if you fired a missile at it it's got nothing. Also anything of this nature would have been removed at point of sale.
Interesting re. The ejector seat it's been a long time since I fully took an interest in planes but I seem to recall the vast majority of demobbed RAF planes had no functional seats. Wonder if there's a threshold somewhere where it becomes required.
Things like jet provosts and folland gnats they just took the explosive out and locked the seats in place. Although there was a time the locks failed and bloke exited the canopy on a jet provost during an aerobatic maneuver.. thankfully he was the passenger and also thankfully he survived as had a parachute.
Things like Foxy Lady (what a thing that was to behold I've got photos I took of it flying in both yellow target drogue and red bull livery) it was supersonic in the dive and seem to recall they had a heck of job getting it certified no idea if the seats on that were live.
Interesting re. The ejector seat it's been a long time since I fully took an interest in planes but I seem to recall the vast majority of demobbed RAF planes had no functional seats. Wonder if there's a threshold somewhere where it becomes required.
Things like jet provosts and folland gnats they just took the explosive out and locked the seats in place. Although there was a time the locks failed and bloke exited the canopy on a jet provost during an aerobatic maneuver.. thankfully he was the passenger and also thankfully he survived as had a parachute.
Things like Foxy Lady (what a thing that was to behold I've got photos I took of it flying in both yellow target drogue and red bull livery) it was supersonic in the dive and seem to recall they had a heck of job getting it certified no idea if the seats on that were live.
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Sitting at sons swimming lesson watching..
Now since we went on holiday I've known he is a ridiculously fast swimmer. Give him a rubber ring and he'll keep up with me unless I'm actually trying to go fast.
But he's not really done that at swimming until this morning...may have just laughed out loud as he launched across the pool like a torpedo leaving the rest of the class half a pool behind.
Of course because he refuses to jump in he'll stay in this class...even though he will jump in he just won't do it at this pool because he's awkward
Now since we went on holiday I've known he is a ridiculously fast swimmer. Give him a rubber ring and he'll keep up with me unless I'm actually trying to go fast.
But he's not really done that at swimming until this morning...may have just laughed out loud as he launched across the pool like a torpedo leaving the rest of the class half a pool behind.
Of course because he refuses to jump in he'll stay in this class...even though he will jump in he just won't do it at this pool because he's awkward
You have to very quickly plug in your smartphone.Agreed. However the newer stuff is all screen based with multi function selections. - like my Scala - Ha Ha
Yep, that's me, on a regular shopping trip to Sainsbury's at Stratton, Swindon, just off the A419/A420 junction. It looks lovely in a photo. That hides the fact that it is dirty, faded by UV, so needs a good wash and polish. Poor thing.
The phot caption says that its not often you see an Alessi. I do, every day.
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
I could publish my Alesi Gallery. Its all you in that car park! Id have to dub out the plates first..
You stalked me, taking multiple pictures? I feel violated.
I bet the pics look better than reality.
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Finally managed to clean Pablo / Peaniut and get some cermaic on it. Its clear this car was not given much love from teh condition of the wiper arms. The seller did a brilliant job on celaning it and I am sure its been machine polished. I do find this does the paint no favours takimng away the hard skin. So cermaic coating after is vital to ensure the benefit is not in fact a moving nightmare. I need to put another 5 coats on and I will be happy but it already look healthier. Im still pleased with the car but need to add a new oil filter to,its clean oil.... I will probably just change it again when daughters done 5K or so and do a full service and brake check plus brake fluid. The whole car is in great condition and should give us a few years trouble free apart from the exhaust which I need to watch. I am going to have the other car converted to the fron silencer arrangement when its system is replacedas its so much smoother. That one has a loose baffle in the back box which spoils the experience soemwhat but otherwise the exhaust looks good for some time yet. It will be 10 years old in a few months which aint bad for its original exhaust. Its still on the same brakes too. I dont think mine will last that long. I may change the brake shoes on the 10 year one as a precaution. No delamination wanted here!
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
I'll digem out and PM you some time. With my white Panda its immaculate but the pics dont show this so well. We are sliding there as the dog has been allowed in and we are off to Northumberland with him in a while. After a week in there it will no longer look new. I shall also put the winter tyres back on as we will be going to Lindisfarne.You stalked me, taking multiple pictures? I feel violated.
I bet the pics look better than reality.
