What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The 1.2 Fabia is turboed, but has a bit of lag. Whilst significantly more powerful than either the 60hp Panda, or the 1.4 95hp petrol Doblo, I prefer both of those. The NA engines are more responsive to the throttle. The response is less, of course, especially with the Panda that gives enthusiastic noises but achieves little, but the response is immediate and appropriate to the amount of throttle used. The turbo initially lags, then pushes strongly, but then requires a reduction of throttle to avoid going faster than desired. It is better on longer runs, but harder work.

I think you said it all there. I greatly prefer the Panda for local trips around the town but I don't want to drive to Devon in it. The Scala is not so nice around town where it's climbing onto the turbo and then off again making smooth progress difficult. The lag is less than it was on the Ibiza but still there. On the motorway you just set the cruise and it wafts along effortlessly. On country roads, as long as you don't try to drive at low RPM it's pretty good with good throttle response but you need to keep a wary eye on speed as it is much more difficult to maintain a fixed speed than in a non turbo.

I had a stainless system put on the Panda, a long time ago now. Came with a 'lifetime' warranty, for as long as I own the car. I suppose that means they would be using better quality stainless.
It is a little harsher in note, but acceptable. It has toned down a little over time, but definitely not as soft as a mild steel system

I have little experience of stainless systems but did help a neighbour to fit a system to his Reliant Scimitar and we were disappointed at how "tinny" it sounded. It did, however, become less "tinny" as time went by but never took on the quite pleasant tone it had with the old steel system.

 

[Cheest]

The 1.2 Fabia is turboed, but has a bit of lag. Whilst significantly more powerful than either the 60hp Panda, or the 1.4 95hp petrol Doblo, I prefer both of those. The NA engines are more responsive to the throttle. The response is less, of course, especially with the Panda that gives enthusiastic noises but achieves little, but the response is immediate and appropriate to the amount of throttle used. The turbo initially lags, then pushes strongly, but then requires a reduction of throttle to avoid going faster than desired. It is better on longer runs, but harder work.

I had a stainless system put on the Panda, a long time ago now. Came with a 'lifetime' warranty, for as long as I own the car. I suppose that means they would be using better quality stainless.
It is a little harsher in note, but acceptable. It has toned down a little over time, but definitely not as soft as a mild steel system

I put a Borla SS system on our 02 Audi A4 Quattro with the 1.8T. Up to 75 mph it had a mellow growl. Over 80, it was an obnoxious snarl. I put an MBRP SS system on my Jeep. Not as nice metal as the Borla and just plain obnoxious. Had I known it would have sounded like that, I wouldn't have bought it.

 

[StevenRB45]

I think you said it all there. I greatly prefer the Panda for local trips around the town but I don't want to drive to Devon in it. The Scala is not so nice around town where it's climbing onto the turbo and then off again making smooth progress difficult. The lag is less than it was on the Ibiza but still there. On the motorway you just set the cruise and it wafts along effortlessly. On country roads, as long as you don't try to drive at low RPM it's pretty good with good throttle response but you need to keep a wary eye on speed as it is much more difficult to maintain a fixed speed than in a non turbo.

Think this depends on where low RPM is...both the Citroën and the Toyota apparently boost at 1500 rpm with peak torque available so unless you're at idle they seem to be quite flexible.

In terms of our 2 Citroën drives like a diesel with a 5.5k redline, it's very obviously turbo but I've correctly calibrated my foot after 7.5 years but I remember kangarooing it quite a lot in past but the trick tends to be not to rush the gear change bring the boost in and out slowly to get a shift a low speed without a head bob.

The Toyota 1.2...is well a Toyota 1.2 so doesn't feel turbo at all unless for some reason you're trying to hill start a 1400kg car at barely above idle. It's an odd one in that the driving experience is like an old school 1.8 in a similar car. When I say old school something along these lines...

Toyota Avensis Estate 1.8 VVTi GS 5d specs & dimensions

Find all the key specs about the Toyota Avensis Estate 1.8 VVTi GS 5d from fuel efficiency and top speed, to running costs, dimensions data and lots more

www.parkers.co.uk

A car with which nearly every spec sheet figure is similar, except weight (old car is lighter but balanced by anaemic torque figure of the 1.8) of course. It never feels boosted it just feels torquey, it also never feels particularly fast but isn't slow. It's similar to a middle of the road 8v none vvti 1.8. No point revving it hard does all the work at the bottom end it's all over by about 4.5k.

Entirely competent...

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Think this depends on where low RPM is...both the Citroën and the Toyota apparently boost at 1500 rpm with peak torque available so unless you're at idle they seem to be quite flexible.

In terms of our 2 Citroën drives like a diesel with a 5.5k redline, it's very obviously turbo but I've correctly calibrated my foot after 7.5 years but I remember kangarooing it quite a lot in past but the trick tends to be not to rush the gear change bring the boost in and out slowly to get a shift a low speed without a head bob.

Aye, I find it particularly annoying when just dribbling in very slow traffic in first gear. The Ibiza, with basically the same engine but 95 hp - the Scala has 110 hp - was not so "fussy". The Scala has quite a long initial throttle pedal movement where little acceleration is evident. If you want to get her to get a shift on you need to have the throttle well down towards the floor, then she does pick up her heels and gets a move on. If I keep her beyond the warranty period I may see if she can be mapped to sort this out. I've been on the Briskoda forum and others report the same effect. I noticed it on the test drive but just thought it was that particular car as it was from their used stock - not a demo vehicle. The Scala also has the 6 speed box whereas the Ibiza had the 5 speed and I think the Scala has a lower ratio first which tends to exacerbate the effect. Like you, I'm "educating" my right foot and slowly getting used to it but I've never had a car with such a pronounced effect. Otherwise though I like the car a lot.

 

[StevenRB45]

Aye, I find it particularly annoying when just dribbling in very slow traffic in first gear. The Ibiza, with basically the same engine but 95 hp - the Scala has 110 hp - was not so "fussy". The Scala has quite a long initial throttle pedal movement where little acceleration is evident. If you want to get her to get a shift on you need to have the throttle well down towards the floor, then she does pick up her heels and gets a move on. If I keep her beyond the warranty period I may see if she can be mapped to sort this out. I've been on the Briskoda forum and others report the same effect. I noticed it on the test drive but just thought it was that particular car as it was from their used stock - not a demo vehicle. The Scala also has the 6 speed box whereas the Ibiza had the 5 speed and I think the Scala has a lower ratio first which tends to exacerbate the effect. Like you, I'm "educating" my right foot and slowly getting used to it but I've never had a car with such a pronounced effect. Otherwise though I like the car a lot.

It may be a little easier in the C3 and Toyota with them being 1.2s so you've little got a bit more exhaust gas and a bit less requirement for boost before you get a decent amount of shove.

After what's probably about 30k miles driving the C3 I can get it rolling and from 1k rpm apply throttle and then shift two second without lurching the car at all. But I also remember it took a long time to learn that car the combination of soft suspension and boost seeming at random made traffic an adventure initially.

Think the the other one is a step further on being a 4 cylinder so more exhaust gas again and also I reckon not turned up as far as the C3 given the lower torque...although it has higher bhp but I don't particularly think it matters anywhere near as much as the torque figure for day to day.

Or it could be that one is a good 40% heavier than the other so lurching it takes a lot more gusto..

 

[The Panda Nut]

It’s always the same with trade ‘regulatory training/accreditation’ bodies…it’s one reason I haven’t kept up my CMIOSH, although I can get a discount for now being retired from H&S, I’m not bloody earning anything and my pension is better spent on stout! As for rarely having to show my membership card, it meant nothing to the jobsworths wanting a CITB card at construction sites!

Me too. Retired member indeed. There were too smain categoroes in general the ones that did nothing and the rule book specialists. The few who were actially sensible enough to look at practicality in the mix were much less common. I used to try and give practical advice that stopped problems from happening, and only quoted rules when people pushed back. I think my IOSH certificate went in the recycling quite a few years bac with all the others. I wanted some heavy grade rat poison the other day and cant get it without my pest control certificate so I am slightly regretting ir now. As for paying anyone for retiree membership... Who do they think they are kidding.

More cheese Grommit?

 

[porta]

Hated those that wo quote chapter and verse without understanding the reasonably practicable bit…rarely quoted regs unless I was training, and then it was with practical examples, or examples of wehn it went wrong

 

[SB1500]

I think Toyota are on to something with the petrol engine and electric motor acting as a turbo… smooth take offs, instant response, lack of turbo issues over time… this little Yaris is like an absolute rocket. Up to 30mph, I’d wager that this and the Lexus would be hard to beat from a stand still by most cars. After that… it’s exactly as you’d expect - disappointing.

But still, when I’ve driven the Panda (after doing the timing belt, the old’ reliable 1.2 FIRE - the variant that’s on heart medication so moves a bit slower than in its ‘younger’ iterations. And my mums Mazda 2, 1.6 or 1.5 naturally aspirated - yes it lacks the instant response of the hybrid or the diesels I’ve owned, no doubt, but there is another sort of satisfaction that only us people who put our own hands on our engine parts to service and fix, that of a really steady, predictable, solid slow increase in power as you move along. And the knowledge that you’ll never need to replace or clean out a turbo system or expensive battery seals the deal to me.

My take on it is this…. The Panda (and similar) is a plenty fast car. I can’t walk or run 70mph. And even if I had a Bugatti, let’s be real, unless I had a big enough bank account to pay for a good solicitor and the fines, it couldn’t get me to London by road any faster than said Panda.

The Panda, and any other ‘slow’ car is more than capable of motorway driving, and overtaking. Because it can overtake anything that actually needs overtaken. Tractors.. slow moving lorries… cyclists… Peugeot drivers…. Basically all of the ‘need’ overtakes that are sensible. All of the ‘nice / want’ overtakes at a blazing speed.. that get you a ticket and / or put other road users in bad positions or have you moving so fast, so agile and so hard to anticipate by other road users, those are probably the ones you’re taking chances on to do anyway. In any car.

Perhaps this is all just ‘cope’ on my part. My current slow Lexus isn’t in the slowest class, though it’s fairly rated as a slow car (basically a Prius after all, notoriously slow) and it’s still more than fast enough, really

 

[The Panda Nut]

I have to say I just dont notice turbo lag in the TA. If you push the eco off button it just feels amply powerful and indeed you need to be careful to not see 100mph appear. Once its got to speed I switch eco on and its easier to keep it honest. I must be insensitive .... It always suprises me how the little TA will overtake lorries even two or three at a time with fair ease if I have the bottle to ask ot to do so.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Hated those that wo quote chapter and verse without understanding the reasonably practicable bit…rarely quoted regs unless I was training, and then it was with practical examples, or examples of wehn it went wrong

I always found talking to people and sometimes showing them a video of what they were doing (wrong usually), and suggesting what might happen if they continued doing things wrong was the best way of making them stand back and say OMG thankyou for showing me the danger I was in. Nearly all said nobody ever bothered to show me before. Those people were the real champions who would go and get others working more safely. I vividly remember showing a guy a video of him working where he was getting within 2 or 3 inches of decapitation each time he put a big bin onto the back of his truck. He didnt want to know until he saw the video. After that he was properly interested. I never once found the HSE unreasonable when presented with a reasoned system of work to enable a job to progress even if it couldnt comply with the rules, as long as people were informed and involved in working out the best possible way to make sure jobs got done in a safe manner. Its all about common sense and taking responsibility. Thats another hobby horse pf mine as the number of managers I met who really accepted responsibility was pitifully small. Back in the 70s when I started work I made sure all accidents were reported directly to me and investiagated. People thought I was mad. It amazes me more peole are not injured at work when nobody cares enough to take responsibility. Its a real tight rope walk getting it right with small reward apart from personal satisfaction. I wish I had been an effective trainer rather than a hard working influencer. I always think how decent management training and tutoring including the undertanding of what being in charge really means would eliminate most of the need for all the safety legislation. The best H&S campaign I remember was from an aussie top manager (Sorry Mr Manager I cant remember your name) who introduced the "Careful cobber" philosophy. It did go a bit OTT but certainly got people thinking and if it rings a bell with me 20 years later must have had soem impact on others as well. I think it worked because he really cared.

 

[bugsymike]

I always found talking to people and sometimes showing them a video of what they were doing (wrong usually), and suggesting what might happen if they continued doing things wrong was the best way of making them stand back and say OMG thankyou for showing me the danger I was in. Nearly all said nobody ever bothered to show me before. Those people were the real champions who would go and get others working more safely. I vividly remember showing a guy a video of him working where he was getting within 2 or 3 inches of decapitation each time he put a big bin onto the back of his truck. He didnt want to know until he saw the video. After that he was properly interested. I never once found the HSE unreasonable when presented with a reasoned system of work to enable a job to progress even if it couldnt comply with the rules, as long as people were informed and involved in working out the best possible way to make sure jobs got done in a safe manner. Its all about common sense and taking responsibility. Thats another hobby horse pf mine as the number of managers I met who really accepted responsibility was pitifully small. Back in the 70s when I started work I made sure all accidents were reported directly to me and investiagated. People thought I was mad. It amazes me more peole are not injured at work when nobody cares enough to take responsibility. Its a real tight rope walk getting it right with small reward apart from personal satisfaction. I wish I had been an effective trainer rather than a hard working influencer. I always think how decent management training and tutoring including the undertanding of what being in charge really means would eliminate most of the need for all the safety legislation. The best H&S campaign I remember was from an aussie top manager (Sorry Mr Manager I cant remember your name) who introduced the "Careful cobber" philosophy. It did go a bit OTT but certainly got people thinking and if it rings a bell with me 20 years later must have had soem impact on others as well. I think it worked because he really cared.

Around about 1970 whilst still at college on day release (not prison) they brought the mobile cinema van around, the one I think used in recent TV series about the past.
We all crowded in to watch a safety in the workshop film, it included some gruesome examples of accidents, such as people working up under the dashboard with the old style metal expanding strap wrist watches shorting them out and burning it into their wrist, those with long hair (fashionable at the time) caught in machinery, people jumping down from a garage ramp and catching their ring in the door handles ripping it off was my favourite as afterwards one lad actually threw up, I used it to my advantage in Refectory eating our lunch afterwards waggling a sausage to put them off their lunch and then eating theirs as well as I had a healthy appetite.
None the less the safety films did serve a useful purpose in showing the dangers of working life and it certainly made me more aware.
I recall my then boss thinking it was funny to rattle the jack handle as a mechanic stupidly had his feet under a car without stands, the jack dropped to inches from his foot. My instant reaction as a 16 year old was to shout at my boss "that was fu**ing stupid!" Nothing more was said , but it never happened again!

 

[porta]

Some of the H&S videos were so corny, folk would just laugh and take the urine out of them.
Some of the Aussie ones were graphic, very graphic, unfortunately, we couldn’t show them. Some particular ones were a guy that whose arm and leg had literally been electrocuted off (point of entry and exit) after accidentally touching HV, a bloke crushed by his own tracked excavator (half flat, half ‘popped’), and one unrecognisable individual that got pulled into a chipper

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Around about 1970 whilst still at college on day release (not prison) they brought the mobile cinema van around, the one I think used in recent TV series about the past.
We all crowded in to watch a safety in the workshop film, it included some gruesome examples of accidents, such as people working up under the dashboard with the old style metal expanding strap wrist watches shorting them out and burning it into their wrist, those with long hair (fashionable at the time) caught in machinery, people jumping down from a garage ramp and catching their ring in the door handles ripping it off was my favourite as afterwards one lad actually threw up, I used it to my advantage in Refectory eating our lunch afterwards waggling a sausage to put them off their lunch and then eating theirs as well as I had a healthy appetite.
None the less the safety films did serve a useful purpose in showing the dangers of working life and it certainly made me more aware.
I recall my then boss thinking it was funny to rattle the jack handle as a mechanic stupidly had his feet under a car without stands, the jack dropped to inches from his foot. My instant reaction as a 16 year old was to shout at my boss "that was fu**ing stupid!" Nothing more was said , but it never happened again!

I think I remember that film Mike. I seem to remember the finger had tendons hanging from it - having been pulled from the arm - like pieces of string? The metal banded wrist watch seems to stir a recollection too, but it was the finger which really sticks in the mind! I never, thank goodness, witnessed anything as bad as that but I do remember one lad jumping down from a 4 poster and getting his shirt hung up in it. He was suspended by it with his feet about a foot from the floor and a couple of us had to lift him up while another released the shirt. Luckily for him the weight was taken under his arms so he suffered no injury - got his leg pulled for weeks after though. It was only a couple of days later that the apprentice drove a Reliant 3 wheeler onto the same ramp. Didn't go well as the front wheel wasn't "happy" trying to surmount the beam without the help of the wee ramps on either side for normal 4 wheelers. I remember the boss being pretty upset and coming over to our tea break corner and giving us a pretty stern talking too! He was too mean to call us over during working time but waited until our break!

Aye Porta and Panda Nut. When health and safety first became a thing I think many of us viewed it as just restricting operations and reducing the opportunity for the shop floor worker to make money, I know I did but, thinking back to it, I took some pretty stupid chances. What "lit the light bulb" for me was all the stuff I was put through when I became a trainer but also that I was then in daily contact with a lot of youngsters who couldn't care less as against, when on the shop floor, having, mainly, older men around you who had "live a bit" and done it all. I found, once you get into safe working, it becomes a way of life rather than an imposition.

Panda Nut, people who won't take responsibility and even try to slide out of being responsible seems to be a national past time which, I think, is as bad now as it's ever been and just getting worse. The national approach to this, in all walks of life, now seems to be "if I can get away with it then fine", regardless of the inconvenience, harm, general angst, caused to others.

 

[SB1500]

Some of the H&S videos were so corny, folk would just laugh and take the urine out of them.
Some of the Aussie ones were graphic, very graphic, unfortunately, we couldn’t show them. Some particular ones were a guy that whose arm and leg had literally been electrocuted off (point of entry and exit) after accidentally touching HV, a bloke crushed by his own tracked excavator (half flat, half ‘popped’), and one unrecognisable individual that got pulled into a chipper

In 2018 I worked for a company that did health and safety courses for mostly construction firms locally. Around the office there was this video everybody saw, it was a legitimate Chinese health and safety campaign for construction site workers.

It showed a man’s day in the life waking up, breakfast, going to work, coming home to his family. And then one day he has an accident at work, falls from a height something horrible. Dies. Fairly standard so far for one of these videos.

But then it’s the authorities having to inform his family, heartbreaking. Their response. Very emotional and upsetting. And you can see them begin to struggle with finances.

The bizarre twist though, is that they show so much of the wife in social scenes with no husband. They show the kid getting bullied at school for having no dad at home. And to top it off, the very VERY end, shows the wife, clearly dressed up in a way that suggests she has become a lady of the night approaching a car at night and then getting in……

I just couldn’t believe that it was a serious public safety campaign there. I presume the shame, and the burdens left on the family, are maybe more of a fear and a point of motivation to do the right thing regarding safety in that culture than the obvious fear of a life changing or fatal accident is! That they had to literally say “your wife will end up as a…” and that’s how they intended to drive the message home about safety on the building site

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

In 2018 I worked for a company that did health and safety courses for mostly construction firms locally. Around the office there was this video everybody saw, it was a legitimate Chinese health and safety campaign for construction site workers.

It showed a man’s day in the life waking up, breakfast, going to work, coming home to his family. And then one day he has an accident at work, falls from a height something horrible. Dies. Fairly standard so far for one of these videos.

But then it’s the authorities having to inform his family, heartbreaking. Their response. Very emotional and upsetting. And you can see them begin to struggle with finances.

The bizarre twist though, is that they show so much of the wife in social scenes with no husband. They show the kid getting bullied at school for having no dad at home. And to top it off, the very VERY end, shows the wife, clearly dressed up in a way that suggests she has become a lady of the night approaching a car at night and then getting in……

I just couldn’t believe that it was a serious public safety campaign there. I presume the shame, and the burdens left on the family, are maybe more of a fear and a point of motivation to do the right thing regarding safety in that culture than the obvious fear of a life changing or fatal accident is! That they had to literally say “your wife will end up as a…” and that’s how they intended to drive the message home about safety on the building site

Some people just lack the imagination to be able to see the implications of their actions in the broader context though? so maybe need this sort of approach to shake them up.

 

[porta]

I remember from my initial IOSH qualification that H&S has been around since Egyptian, Greek and Roman times, there’s even hieroglyphics showing safe working practices! I this country, H&S was as a result of lost cargo in the 18thC, one of the first ‘LOLER’ (lifting regulations) was due to a river barge being sunk, whilst loading, from a dockside wehn the ropes gave way. The load went through the hull…not much mention of the two sailers killed!!!

 

[SB1500]

Some people just lack the imagination to be able to see the implications of their actions in the broader context though? so maybe need this sort of approach to shake them up.

True, if it works it works. And if it saves lives then it's justified and all. If we can get a laugh out of the bizarre content then that's just a silver lining!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Talking about "gumpy" and people with a lack of imagination, I've just been down to Aldi (15 minute drive) to buy a pair of waterproof trainers. I usually buy such items from Mountain Warehouse when they have a sale on but, maybe 3 years ago, I bought bought a pair of Aldi's best and they've been very good so thought I'd have another pair - At £14.99 it's worth a try. Anyway, having bought the trainers and driven out to the main "drag" I decided to take the long way home to give Bluey (the Scala) a decent run. This means going along the seafront road from Newhaven along to Granton. Then left at the roundabout and up Grasnton road until it hits the Ferry Road at the top. This has all been a 20mph for over a year now. It's a good road which could easily be a 30 - except perhaps for the bit past the school on Granton Road, which previously had a 20 limit flashing lights. As I set off on the main road from the store a wee Toyota came up fast behind me and positioned itself as if to overtake - which was a physical impossibility due to traffic. It's a 30 for about a couple of miles until the first roundabout at Newhaven were it changes to a 20. The car in front of me slows to 20 as do I but madam behind, with little girl who's head I can just see above the dashboard (ie, she's far to young to be in the front), closes right up on my bumper still sitting with her O/S wheels astride the centre line. We go a short distance until the car in front turns left up the hill where the old railway bridge used to cross the road. Now the road ahead is clear and straight for quite a way with nothing coming towards us and me still sticking to the 20 - illuminated radar sign on other side of road tells me "SLOW" and displays my speed as 21 mph. I think to myself, "watch her, she's going to go for it now" but she doesn't, just sits there with both O/S wheels over the line and about, literally, a couple of feet off my back bumper. I intentionally slow and pull a little closer to the curb but she still doesn't go for it. Now there's traffic coming towards us so I just resume normal driving and placement of my car. We go the whole way to the roundabout like this. At the roundabout I indicate left and take the first exit off onto Granton Road and, damn it, she's still behind me. Granton Road is a nice wide road - you could easily drive 3 abreast and there's a completely clear road ahead. I keep to the 20 (it's both on signs on the lamp posts and painted on the road itself) but she remains glued to my back bumper. I'm now considering pulling over and just stopping to get rid of her, but there's a learner ahead who's just pulled away from the curb, going quite slowly and I'm almost upon them so I decide to just keep going. The learner may well be on their first lesson - it's a good quiet road and I've seen learners here before - as the car is only doing about 15 mph. Now there's traffic coming towards us so I just fall in behind the learner but giving them plenty of room - if for no other reason than it means I can moderate my speed on the throttle without needing to brake and accelerate. I'm probably about half a dozen car lengths behind the learner but the gap is concertinaing as the learner tries to maintain a steady speed. The driver behind me is now pretty much loosing the plot, weaving in and out behind me and generally being a total idiot. When we reach the lights at Ferry Road I'm going left so get into the left lane which puts me beside the learner car - being driven by a very nervous looking young woman so I felt happy I'd hung back and not pressured her, but this now puts Mrs Toyota behind them and as I turn left and look in my mirror I see the Toyota applying the same treatment she did to me, to the learner.

So, I'd like to ask you all, what would you do in a position like this? I myself find 20 limits very annoying in certain situations - and this road along the sea front is one as there's really no logical reason why it shouldn't be a 30 - But the law is the law and we all need to just bite the bullet and behave ourselves. If you do life is so much less stressful. What I can't understand is that there were at least two occasions when she could have very safely overtaken. So, if she'd had a sick child on board and was heading for the hospital or some other emergency I wasn't holding her back so why did she deliberately choose to follow so closely and with such aggression? Beyond my understanding! Maybe the fact that I remained calm and just drove normally within the law is what was bugging her?

 

[StevenRB45]

I tend to go with indicate left on a clear section, let them pull past and drop in behind.

If they are going to be an absolute Jeb end they can do it away from me and it's easier to keep a safe distance to the back of their car than having them being distracting in the mirror.

In some ways they've got what they want...but in many others I've got what I want in that I'm not in the firing line of a mentally deficient driver either.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I tend to go with indicate left on a clear section, let them pull past and drop in behind.

If they are going to be an absolute Jeb end they can do it away from me and it's easier to keep a safe distance to the back of their car than having them being distracting in the mirror.

In some ways they've got what they want...but in many others I've got what I want in that I'm not in the firing line of a mentally deficient driver either.

Thanks Steven. I basically tried to do just that although I didn't do the left indicator. However I think I'd have had to pull over and stop for it to have worked. Completely agree it's best to let them past so they can go off and have their accident with someone else. Also I don't engage with folk like this, don't attempt to speak to them or offer up a gesture of any sort. It can often just end up in tears - your own.