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What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

Cannot find a source at the moment but 99% sure I have read on ice the sipes give an increase in the number of "edges" in contact with the surface effectively multiplying the number of points on the tyre it can generate grip with.

you have search tire instead of tyre and lots of info on them.
spipe will cause a solid block of rubber to distort slightly under braking turning this [____] into this [\\\\]
 

The link went nowhere, until you add the end bracket, then the article in Wikipedia is a bit vague when referring to ice, and really gives scant detail. I guess this was written by an interested amateur, not by a tyre technician, so cannot be taken as definitive information. Needs something from a tyre manufacturer really, but I can't be arsed to look.
 
The link went nowhere, until you add the end bracket, then the article in Wikipedia is a bit vague when referring to ice, and really gives scant detail. I guess this was written by an interested amateur, not by a tyre technician, so cannot be taken as definitive information. Needs something from a tyre manufacturer really, but I can't be arsed to look.

sipes were not discovered by a tyre technician though
 
DUH?

The question was whether sipes helped on ice.
Sipes mayhave been invented for another purpose, but it is tyre technicians who have adopted and developed them for tyres, so they are the ones who know what they do, and in what conditions.

I am sure this has all been discussed on the forum in the past many time there was a thread in 500 section with nearly 3k posts it may be in there

edit nokian website says they grip ice it also goes on about pump sipes now as well as ziz zag snipes.
The pocket-shaped pump sipes on the tread blocks of the tyre's outer edges ensure good contact with the driving surface. Sipes are the cuts on the tyre tread.

During the development of an earlier tyre model, Nokian Tyres patented the special pump sipes on the tread blocks of the tyre's shoulder area. For the new tyre, the operation of the pump sipes was further improved by increasing their volume. The pocket-shaped pump sipes remove, or rather pump, the water off of the surface of the road, ensuring thereby that the tyre maintains good contact with the driving surface.

Together with the zigzag sipes, the pump sipes boost the tyre's wet grip and ice grip further. The even denser and sharper zigzag siping of the aggressive tread pattern improves the grip that is needed in extremely slippery weather and in deep snow. The wider single sipes provide more grip for rough ice and snow. The heavily grooved surface and open block gaps in the shoulder area have excellent self-cleaning characteristics in snow and slush.#
 
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Looked at that earlier but couldn’t see any specific reference to Ice.

While your quote above does mention ice it doesn’t really expand enough in to the how. We all understand how they help with snow, but I can’t make the same logic work with ice. It says it helps with rough ice, and I can understand this to a degree, but I’d define rough ice as compacted and refrozen snow.

The sort of ice we tend to get here is normally black / sheet ice and I can’t work out of sipes in a winter tyre with 4mm> tread would be better than a winter with 2-4mm tread with little or no sipes.
 
The sipes could allow water created by the tyre melting the ice with frictional heat away from the surface of the tyre.

Ice may not stick to ice, but water on ice is pretty much the worst driving surface so allowing the water to escape is desirable.
 
Looked at that earlier but couldn’t see any specific reference to Ice.

While your quote above does mention ice it doesn’t really expand enough in to the how. We all understand how they help with snow, but I can’t make the same logic work with ice. It says it helps with rough ice, and I can understand this to a degree, but I’d define rough ice as compacted and refrozen snow.

The sort of ice we tend to get here is normally black / sheet ice and I can’t work out of sipes in a winter tyre with 4mm> tread would be better than a winter with 2-4mm tread with little or no sipes.

like i said its all been on the forum before many times before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tc3VIDQvh0
 
Shall I risk ridicule by jumping in with my ha'penny worth here? Oh well, why not.

My knowledge base is quite old but I suspect still largely relevant. Back in the '60s/early '70s, when I worked for Firestone, I got involved in testing tyres on Beach buggies. There had been a number of high profile road accidents involving them and several seemed to have been running on our tyres. The problem was that there was a big image thing going on with beach buggies in Britain because of images in magazines and from machines which appeared in films. They generally tried to get the widest tyres possible which were often part worn racing tyres, often ex F1 which were maybe 4 or 5 times as wide as a road tyre at that time and, even when new, had much less tread depth than a road tyre. Here's the very famous one from The Thomas Crown Affair which actually had a Corvair flat 6 in the back with in excess of 200hp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6vogI1JZZg

considering the power the tyres aren't actually too wild. I saw the film 3 times just to see the Dune Buggy! Here's a road going one with some pretty wide ones fitted. fine in the dry Californian sunshine, not so good on a wet day down the Kings Road!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X66Ei8kIIIc

and just look at the width of those rear tyres. The weight of a beach buggy is not great so when you put something as wide as that on it you can confidently predict, even before you try it out, that it's going to aquaplane at the slightest excuse, and, of course this is what we found. - and we had a really fun week of cavorting around at Chobham on the skid pan with a couple of beach buggies and other vehicles. Then there was the problem that a race tyre is very lightly constructed so sidewall damage is easily inflicted. Basically they are unsuitable for use on the public highway. So we fulfilled the brief we had been given which was to verify that racing tyres should not be used - and in fact not just on beach buggies but on the public highway in general on any vehicle.

There was an awful lot more to it than I've detailed above and the end report was well received by our management and some others that it was decided to look at what would work most safely. The big problem was getting the tyre to engage with the road surface on such a light vehicle and especially when the surface was wet. The first thing is that you don't really want a very wide tyre in the wet, or in the snow for that matter. Ice is a whole different problem because it precludes any possibility of engaging with the road surface. Best option on ice is to use a studded tyre, but this is a very specialized, expensive and, in our climate, not often usable option (lots of people tearing around on tarmac roads with studded tyres soon causes horrific damage to the road surface - You need solid ice) so if you are not going to use studs you need very sophisticated, specialized, - "soft" in simple language - tread compounds which will, to some extent, engage with ice. The trouble is if you then run these on dry roads they wear out very very quickly. So, it's very difficult to address the problem of what best to do for really icy roads in our country (UK). There's no substitute for just proceeding slowly and driving very smoothly- Ca' Canny we'd say, eh jim?

Snow and wet surfaces are a more easily addressed - but not "easy" problem. I'm not a snow specialist, but a lot of sensible "stuff" about letting trapped snow in the tyre engage with the snow on the road. The snow in the tyre bonding to the snow on the ground then lets the tyre "climb" along the snow trapped in the tread a bit like a rack and pinion railway train. If you are going to let this work well though you need to reduce wheelspin to as near zero as makes no difference and I'm sure many people will have seen and/or experienced how pointless it is to spin the wheels in snow - you end up going nowhere!

Then we come to wet surfaces. Cleverly compounded "sticky" tread rubber is a big help here but will wear more quickly than a summer tyre's harder wearing compounds. But the tread pattern is very important to try to get the water out of the way and let the rubber engage with the road surface. One of the first "clever" designs, which worked quite well - you often saw them on Jags and Aston Martins etc - was the Dunlop Aquajet back in the late '60's which had lots of voids in the tread design to disperse water and also had the "aquajets" in the shoulder area to "pump" the water out. You can see them here quite clearly:

https://www.vintagetyres.com/shop/dunlop-sp-sport-aquajet-165-70r10-72s

Do you know when Nokian took out their patent dave? Anyway, when you then start thinking about how best to get the tread of the tyre into reasonably dry contact with the road surface it boils down to two main techniques. Large grooves in the rubber surface to shift the main body of the water and much smaller slits - sipes - which, once the main volume of water has been shifted, "squeegees" most of the remaining dampness under the individual tread blocks up and retains it until the tyre revolves and lets the water come back out again by centrifugal action. The big problem with moving most of the water is that as the tread contact surface rotates down into contact with the water the water on the outside can easily shoot out sideways but the water in the middle has nowhere to go. This is why a slick (without tread pattern) racing tyre - or bald/nearly bald - road tyre will skid (aquaplane) even on just a damp surface. The water can't get out from under the contact patch on the tyre in the time available - gets worse the faster you are going - so it completely looses contact with the road surface and the car will behave like it's on ice!

So now look at this modern tyre which is designed to do it's best to get over the problem;

https://www.avontyres.com/en-gb/tyres/avon-as7

It's got a sophisticated compound of rubber used in the tread layer and a very aggressive tread pattern with lots of grooves to allow water to escape from the middle of the contact patch and smaller sipes to shift the little bit left. But more than that, you'll notice the tread pattern is arranged in a "V" isn't it? Think about that for a moment. The big problem area for shifting the water is to get it away from the centre of the contact patch. Think about how this tread pattern is presenting to the road. Consider just the one "V" element of the pattern. The water in the middle of the contact patch is going to be influenced by the point of the "V" first. Then, as the tyre continues to rotate, contact between the tyre and the road is going to squeeze the water outwards along the arms of the "V" until it reaches the outside shoulder of the tread. This design is much more efficient at shifting the water than a conventional "block" tread pattern like this one:

https://www.avontyres.com/en-gb/tyres/avon-zv7

Which will actually stop water moving outwards and rely on being able to move the water front to rear through the tread grooves. This design will become much less efficient as the tyre ages and the groove depth decreases.

However the last example will be a much better tyre to drive fast on when the road is dry because it's tread is much more stable. Compare it with the all weather design and you can see the tread is less well braced and will tend to "squirm" if you push it hard on a dry road surface.

Sure I've not mentioned half of it but maybe this will give some of you cause to comment or call me out?
 
With an MOT due on my Ibiza in 2 months time - coming up on 5 years old and 25,000 miles - and the discussion going on here about tyre variants giving me food for thought, I just went out to check it's tyres. It's still on the original Bridgestone Ecopia EP150 jobbies which are down to a tad under 4 mm on the front and about 5mm on the rears. So plenty of life in them yet I was thinking but I also noticed, some time ago, that there is considerable cracking circumferentially around the base of the tread grooves.

Was in a similar boat on the Mazda prior to the All seasons had 4mm on the front and 5 on the rear with a set of Goodyears that had done the best part of 25k over 4 years.

MOT time came and I got an advisory for age cracking could have let it ride another year but didn't.

I'm interested to see if the different rubber composition will last any longer on the all season, though don't think i'll have the car that long. It'll be 14 years old and somewhere the other side of 110k miles (if I ever go back to commuting) by the time they reach 5 years old..and that's a bit long in the tooth for a main family car.

I think tyre wise the new style of all season is no-brainer for a none performance car that you need to use year round other than not being cheap.

Not ignoring your most recent post, I'd just started on this when it popped up! No questions actually matches a lot of things I've seen elsewhere.
 
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Shall I risk ridicule by jumping in with my ha'penny worth here? Oh well, why not.

My knowledge base is quite old but I suspect still largely relevant. Back in the '60s/early '70s, when I worked for Firestone, I got involved in testing tyres on Beach buggies. There had been a number of high profile road accidents involving them and several seemed to have been running on our tyres. The problem was that there was a big image thing going on with beach buggies in Britain because of images in magazines and from machines which appeared in films. They generally tried to get the widest tyres possible which were often part worn racing tyres, often ex F1 which were maybe 4 or 5 times as wide as a road tyre at that time and, even when new, had much less tread depth than a road tyre. Here's the very famous one from The Thomas Crown Affair which actually had a Corvair flat 6 in the back with in excess of 200hp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6vogI1JZZg

considering the power the tyres aren't actually too wild. I saw the film 3 times just to see the Dune Buggy! Here's a road going one with some pretty wide ones fitted. fine in the dry Californian sunshine, not so good on a wet day down the Kings Road!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X66Ei8kIIIc

and just look at the width of those rear tyres. The weight of a beach buggy is not great so when you put something as wide as that on it you can confidently predict, even before you try it out, that it's going to aquaplane at the slightest excuse, and, of course this is what we found. - and we had a really fun week of cavorting around at Chobham on the skid pan with a couple of beach buggies and other vehicles. Then there was the problem that a race tyre is very lightly constructed so sidewall damage is easily inflicted. Basically they are unsuitable for use on the public highway. So we fulfilled the brief we had been given which was to verify that racing tyres should not be used - and in fact not just on beach buggies but on the public highway in general on any vehicle.

There was an awful lot more to it than I've detailed above and the end report was well received by our management and some others that it was decided to look at what would work most safely. The big problem was getting the tyre to engage with the road surface on such a light vehicle and especially when the surface was wet. The first thing is that you don't really want a very wide tyre in the wet, or in the snow for that matter. Ice is a whole different problem because it precludes any possibility of engaging with the road surface. Best option on ice is to use a studded tyre, but this is a very specialized, expensive and, in our climate, not often usable option (lots of people tearing around on tarmac roads with studded tyres soon causes horrific damage to the road surface - You need solid ice) so if you are not going to use studs you need very sophisticated, specialized, - "soft" in simple language - tread compounds which will, to some extent, engage with ice. The trouble is if you then run these on dry roads they wear out very very quickly. So, it's very difficult to address the problem of what best to do for really icy roads in our country (UK). There's no substitute for just proceeding slowly and driving very smoothly- Ca' Canny we'd say, eh jim?

Snow and wet surfaces are a more easily addressed - but not "easy" problem. I'm not a snow specialist, but a lot of sensible "stuff" about letting trapped snow in the tyre engage with the snow on the road. The snow in the tyre bonding to the snow on the ground then lets the tyre "climb" along the snow trapped in the tread a bit like a rack and pinion railway train. If you are going to let this work well though you need to reduce wheelspin to as near zero as makes no difference and I'm sure many people will have seen and/or experienced how pointless it is to spin the wheels in snow - you end up going nowhere!

Then we come to wet surfaces. Cleverly compounded "sticky" tread rubber is a big help here but will wear more quickly than a summer tyre's harder wearing compounds. But the tread pattern is very important to try to get the water out of the way and let the rubber engage with the road surface. One of the first "clever" designs, which worked quite well - you often saw them on Jags and Aston Martins etc - was the Dunlop Aquajet back in the late '60's which had lots of voids in the tread design to disperse water and also had the "aquajets" in the shoulder area to "pump" the water out. You can see them here quite clearly:

https://www.vintagetyres.com/shop/dunlop-sp-sport-aquajet-165-70r10-72s

Do you know when Nokian took out their patent dave? Anyway, when you then start thinking about how best to get the tread of the tyre into reasonably dry contact with the road surface it boils down to two main techniques. Large grooves in the rubber surface to shift the main body of the water and much smaller slits - sipes - which, once the main volume of water has been shifted, "squeegees" most of the remaining dampness under the individual tread blocks up and retains it until the tyre revolves and lets the water come back out again by centrifugal action. The big problem with moving most of the water is that as the tread contact surface rotates down into contact with the water the water on the outside can easily shoot out sideways but the water in the middle has nowhere to go. This is why a slick (without tread pattern) racing tyre - or bald/nearly bald - road tyre will skid (aquaplane) even on just a damp surface. The water can't get out from under the contact patch on the tyre in the time available - gets worse the faster you are going - so it completely looses contact with the road surface and the car will behave like it's on ice!

So now look at this modern tyre which is designed to do it's best to get over the problem;

https://www.avontyres.com/en-gb/tyres/avon-as7

It's got a sophisticated compound of rubber used in the tread layer and a very aggressive tread pattern with lots of grooves to allow water to escape from the middle of the contact patch and smaller sipes to shift the little bit left. But more than that, you'll notice the tread pattern is arranged in a "V" isn't it? Think about that for a moment. The big problem area for shifting the water is to get it away from the centre of the contact patch. Think about how this tread pattern is presenting to the road. Consider just the one "V" element of the pattern. The water in the middle of the contact patch is going to be influenced by the point of the "V" first. Then, as the tyre continues to rotate, contact between the tyre and the road is going to squeeze the water outwards along the arms of the "V" until it reaches the outside shoulder of the tread. This design is much more efficient at shifting the water than a conventional "block" tread pattern like this one:

https://www.avontyres.com/en-gb/tyres/avon-zv7

Which will actually stop water moving outwards and rely on being able to move the water front to rear through the tread grooves. This design will become much less efficient as the tyre ages and the groove depth decreases.

However the last example will be a much better tyre to drive fast on when the road is dry because it's tread is much more stable. Compare it with the all weather design and you can see the tread is less well braced and will tend to "squirm" if you push it hard on a dry road surface.

Sure I've not mentioned half of it but maybe this will give some of you cause to comment or call me out?
Ive said that about tread pattern in threads years back and no one believed me. example https://www.fiatforum.com/croma-ii/...-18-tyres-altenzo-any-thoughts.html?p=3168917

that vintage tyres confirms what i though i remembers of tyres year ago when i fist started driving i was sure they had snips back then. that and the fact we all ran thinner tyres as standard id probably why even though winters were harder less people got stuck in the snow.
 
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Got a marketing email from Halfords.
"Interested in Motoring?" is the title. Might be, if we were allowed out.
Then in the main body,
"Prepare for the journey"
I guess the marketing department of Halfords is staffed by people in their mid twenties, who think the lockdown is only for old folks.
 
Got a marketing email from Halfords.
"Interested in Motoring?" is the title. Might be, if we were allowed out.
Then in the main body,
"Prepare for the journey"
I guess the marketing department of Halfords is staffed by people in their mid twenties, who think the lockdown is only for old folks.

Key workers still have to make the journey to work though
 
dfs want to deliver my new sofa n chairs next week, but the charity shops are shut, and i have no where to store my old one until they open, cant give it away privately as that has spreading dangers too
was a girl on facebook claiming she had just gone from homeless into her first place and needed stuff, that probably would have been seen as essential, but then someone posted links of her selling all the stuff people were giving her, scammer

Got my old sofa collect by Emmaus if anyone else has furniture to donate they are still collecting. has to be clean and sellable though.
 
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