What's made you grumpy today?

[PuntoHowTo]

If you're stupid enough to not notice all 4 tyres have been slashed before driving off..you aren't going to notice a warning light.

That and the sound of 4 flat tyres...and the bizzare feeling that for some reason it's really hard today to reach 40mph.

I think there are enough give always that the tires are flat, if you slash all 4 tires on a car with sensors I suspect it would cause an error thinking there is something wrong with the sensors if all 4 are reading zero.

I still suspect a passive system could tell as the rotational speed of the tire would not be perfectly consistent through throughout the rotation with the tires bumping and the rubber bunching up under load flexing and twisting.

I'm not massively concerned about someone slashing my tyres.. although I understand having interacted with you that it is a very real daily concern for you for good reason.

Can’t not laugh at this

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I agree, in the old days most vehicles had gauges in the them giving all sorts of details, then I believe it started in America to simply use warning lights, otherwise known as "idiot lights" as even an idiot can see something is wrong.
However in the 1970s I knew a lady who drove her Austin 1300 car to a standstill on the M5 motorway, when recovery arrived they found the fan belt had broken and the engine had got so hot the plastic oil filler cap had melted down into the rocker gear!!!
When asked about the red warning light she said she hadn't seen it, but her young daughter spoke up and said it had been on for ages on the journey!
Needless to say the engine was scrap!

I think all the dashboard displays on modern vehicles are just too complicated. The number of warning lights alone are ridiculous and the result is that many people simply disregard them - Not helped by situations such as I experienced shortly after I got the Scala. A light came on related to oil - which scared me of course - These wee EA211 engines have a bit of a reputation for using oil over the first few thousand miles so I stopped immediately and dipped the level. Level was roughly half way between full and top up so absolutely fine. Checked all other levels and all ok, also had a general "sniff around" for anything else but all seemed Ok. So I gingerly restarted the engine and the light (oil can) didn't come back on. A wee bit further down the road it came on and then off again. Then did it again a wee while later. By this time we were near the main dealer so I went in on our way past. It was just on closing time for the workshop and noone seemed bothered so i made a fuss and eventually the workshop manager/foreman - I think? - came out and said bring it back tomorrow! Pretty poor if there really was a problem? Anyway I made a big fuss and eventually he told me that they'd had this on a few of them and I wasn't to worry as they seemed to sort themselves out?!!!! By now they were locking down the doors so I gave up and drove home. He seems to have been right as it's never done it the again and I've had her for coming up on 9 months now.

Even back in the days when all you had was a red ignition warning light and an orange oil warning light very few people had any idea what it meant if one of them lit up when you were driving. In my experience many people thought the orange light with "oil" written under it was telling you the oil needed topped up! I find myself wondering, with all the "wonderful" modern computer stuff and Ai whether a better solution would be to have all this monitored by little computers which could then speak to you and tell you what you should be doing - For instance "Low oil pressure, stop as soon as possible, engine damage imminent" Or "Coolant level low, top up as soon as possible" Or "Engine overheating, stop as soon as possible to avoid engine damage. and so on. People need to be given some guidance, it's no use simply illuminating a light which noone knows what it really means or the implications of ignoring it.

 

[vexorg]

I'm not massively concerned about someone slashing my tyres.. although I understand having interacted with you that it is a very real daily concern for you for good reason.

Never been worried, and I dont buy cheap tyres

Because all 4 tyres are in the same space so heating and cooling happens to them relative to eachother. It's doesn't care what the actual size of the tyre is...all it cares about is how it compares to what it is expecting. If it's going faster than the others the diameter is smaller it's probably going flat.

The temperature difference between front and rear will be dfferent if not drivien like a girl.

I recently had to fault find an ABS problem on one of the work's navaras, I had the live data from each wheel and the speed difference between all wheels is surprising when driving round town.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I recently had to fault find an ABS problem on one of the work's navaras, I had the live data from each wheel and the speed difference between all wheels is surprising when driving round town.

Hence the ABS fault one would suspect........

 

[porta]

I think all the dashboard displays on modern vehicles are just too complicated. The number of warning lights alone are ridiculous and the result is that many people simply disregard them - Not helped by situations such as I experienced shortly after I got the Scala. A light came on related to oil - which scared me of course - These wee EA211 engines have a bit of a reputation for using oil over the first few thousand miles so I stopped immediately and dipped the level. Level was roughly half way between full and top up so absolutely fine. Checked all other levels and all ok, also had a general "sniff around" for anything else but all seemed Ok. So I gingerly restarted the engine and the light (oil can) didn't come back on. A wee bit further down the road it came on and then off again. Then did it again a wee while later. By this time we were near the main dealer so I went in on our way past. It was just on closing time for the workshop and noone seemed bothered so i made a fuss and eventually the workshop manager/foreman - I think? - came out and said bring it back tomorrow! Pretty poor if there really was a problem? Anyway I made a big fuss and eventually he told me that they'd had this on a few of them and I wasn't to worry as they seemed to sort themselves out?!!!! By now they were locking down the doors so I gave up and drove home. He seems to have been right as it's never done it the again and I've had her for coming up on 9 months now.

Even back in the days when all you had was a red ignition warning light and an orange oil warning light very few people had any idea what it meant if one of them lit up when you were driving. In my experience many people thought the orange light with "oil" written under it was telling you the oil needed topped up! I find myself wondering, with all the "wonderful" modern computer stuff and Ai whether a better solution would be to have all this monitored by little computers which could then speak to you and tell you what you should be doing - For instance "Low oil pressure, stop as soon as possible, engine damage imminent" Or "Coolant level low, top up as soon as possible" Or "Engine overheating, stop as soon as possible to avoid engine damage. and so on. People need to be given some guidance, it's no use simply illuminating a light which noone knows what it really means or the implications of ignoring it.

God no…speaking cars, that went well for BL…

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

God no…speaking cars, that went well for BL…

Oh yes, Did you know that for the German market they had to have a male voice as it was considered a female voice would be too distracting!

 

[bugsymike]

Oh yes, Did you know that for the German market they had to have a male voice as it was considered a female voice would be too distracting!

Probably as older males have developed selective deafness by then out of necessity.

 

[porta]

Probably as older males have developed selective deafness by then out of necessity.

I can’t possibly comment

 

[The Panda Nut]

I think all the dashboard displays on modern vehicles are just too complicated. The number of warning lights alone are ridiculous and the result is that many people simply disregard them - Not helped by situations such as I experienced shortly after I got the Scala. A light came on related to oil - which scared me of course - These wee EA211 engines have a bit of a reputation for using oil over the first few thousand miles so I stopped immediately and dipped the level. Level was roughly half way between full and top up so absolutely fine. Checked all other levels and all ok, also had a general "sniff around" for anything else but all seemed Ok. So I gingerly restarted the engine and the light (oil can) didn't come back on. A wee bit further down the road it came on and then off again. Then did it again a wee while later. By this time we were near the main dealer so I went in on our way past. It was just on closing time for the workshop and noone seemed bothered so i made a fuss and eventually the workshop manager/foreman - I think? - came out and said bring it back tomorrow! Pretty poor if there really was a problem? Anyway I made a big fuss and eventually he told me that they'd had this on a few of them and I wasn't to worry as they seemed to sort themselves out?!!!! By now they were locking down the doors so I gave up and drove home. He seems to have been right as it's never done it the again and I've had her for coming up on 9 months now.

Even back in the days when all you had was a red ignition warning light and an orange oil warning light very few people had any idea what it meant if one of them lit up when you were driving. In my experience many people thought the orange light with "oil" written under it was telling you the oil needed topped up! I find myself wondering, with all the "wonderful" modern computer stuff and Ai whether a better solution would be to have all this monitored by little computers which could then speak to you and tell you what you should be doing - For instance "Low oil pressure, stop as soon as possible, engine damage imminent" Or "Coolant level low, top up as soon as possible" Or "Engine overheating, stop as soon as possible to avoid engine damage. and so on. People need to be given some guidance, it's no use simply illuminating a light which noone knows what it really means or the implications of ignoring it.

Noop get excited occasionally if you manage to nearly stall, it sends messages like insufficent oil and insuficient power. If I dont already feel incompetent enough without him rubbing it in. If you actually stall he waits until those behind are hooting and lethargically restarts... I think he has enough warning messages. I dont want more. Hes going through his pandapause I think. When I use voice to 'call' some one his response is no longer number please? but 'copy fon-book'? We have been having words, some a lot less than polite.

 

[HughJarsse]

Noop get excited occasionally if youmanage to nearly stall it sends messages like insufficent oil and insuficient power. If I dont already feel incompetent enough without him rubbing it in. If you actually stall he waits until those behind are hooting and lethargically restarts... I think he has enough warning messages. I dont want more. Hes going through his pandapause I think. When Iuse voice to 'call' some one his response is no longer number please? but 'copy fon-book'? We havebeen having words, some a lot less than polite.

Found this little gem from many years ago. Might make you smile.

I have a little Satnav, it sits there in my car.
A Satnav is a driver's friend it tells you where you are.
I have a little Satnav, i've had it all my life.
It's better than the normal ones, my Satnav is my wife.
It gives me full instructions, especially how to drive
"It's sixty miles an hour", it says, "You're doing sixty five".
It tells me when to stop and start, and when to use the brake
And tells me that it's never ever, safe to overtake.
It tells me when a light is red, and when it goes to green
It seems to know instinctively, just when to intervene.
It lists the vehicles just in front, and all those to the rear.
And taking this into account, it specifies my gear.
I'm sure no other driver, has so helpful a device.
For when we leave and lock the car, it still gives its advice.
It fills me up with counselling, each journey's pretty fraught.
So why don't I exchange it, and get a quieter sort?
Ah well, you see, it cleans the house, makes sure I'm properly fed.
It washes all my shirts and things, and keeps me warm in bed!
Despite all these advantages, and my tendency to scoff,

I only wish that now and then, I could turn the bugger off.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Probably as older males have developed selective deafness by then out of necessity.

I just turn the hearing aids off.

 

[vexorg]

Hence the ABS fault one would suspect........

No, the speed differences were all when good, the fault was when the front passenger one randomly went to zero, the light came on then.

 

[bugsymike]

I just turn the hearing aids off.

Pardon.

 

[StevenRB45]

No, the speed differences were all when good, the fault was when the front passenger one randomly went to zero, the light came on then.

You'd expect that though each tyre is worn slightly differently.

But the way the work is they compare the wheel speeds between each other. So you set the pressures and tell it you have, it then "learns" what normal is similar to ECU fuel trims. So if normal is one wheel is going faster than the other because you've got one tyre with more tread than the other doesn't matter as that's the base line.

If all of a sudden those wheels were to match speed and the differential go consistently the other way...it would flag a puncture because that's not what it's expecting.

However cannot stress this enough...going to a garage multiple times to sort the other system means it will never be preferable. If I wanted to change the wheels on one system..I can. On the other, break out the laptop, buy 4 valve stems for 75 quid and maybe it won't get upset.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

However cannot stress this enough...going to a garage multiple times to sort the other system means it will never be preferable. If I wanted to change the wheels on one system..I can. On the other, break out the laptop, buy 4 valve stems for 75 quid and maybe it won't get upset.

I'm pretty sure the Ignis has in wheel battery powered sensors which puts me off a bit. I think it also has a D/M flywheel which I'd rather not have and the insurance is considerably more than a Panda. Pity, I rather fancied the Ignis but a Panda looks very much more sensible if we decide to replace Becky. I've only ever messed about with older Fiats, do the newer Pandas ie. say 2015, 16, 17, 18 use in wheel sensors or are they ABS based?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

No, the speed differences were all when good, the fault was when the front passenger one randomly went to zero, the light came on then.

Oh dear, you had to make me go and do maths.......


a quick search found a set of navara wheel and tires to be 255/65/17 which when new will have a diameter of 763mm and a rolling circumference of 2.395Metres

if you wore all 8mm of tread off a tire you would have a rolling circumference of
2.345mm

Which equates to about 2% difference in the rolling circumference between a brand new tire and an completely worn bald tire.

A brand new tire at 60mph, would equate to the completely bald tire reading 61.2 mph
These are not going to be vast differences.
The computer monitors the tires and expects to see those fairly consistent readings thought out the journey. you could expect the pressure to go up and the circumference to go up slightly, but overall things will be pretty stable. However.


But if you pick up a screw and within a hour or two you lose about 10mm of height in the tire wall. The computer will see a significant change that goes well beyond what would be expected from tire wear in a very short space of time.

If you get a puncture and in say 5 minutes the tire wall gives by 1 mm in height due to loss of pressure, it equates to a 0.7% change in the speed of that wheel. So if it was registering at 60mph before that wheel is now doing 60.5mph in a space of 5 minutes.

You could argue that if all 4 tires went down at the same time that this would trick the system into not seeing the problem but there is almost no situation where this would happen at exactly the same time and with perfectly equal loss of pressure.

Also the car knows what size its wheels should be, and learns these parameters when you reset the system. It knows that if you have X number of revs and you select Y gear you should see Z speed at the wheel, if the speed at the wheel is higher, I,e it is going round more quickly due to loss of pressure and a decrease in the size of the overall circumference of the wheel, then there must be a puncture. or the tire fell off.

So no, 4 punctures will not fool the system even if all 4 tires were slashed and you got in the car and drove off, and it is very quick and accurate to pick up the errors.

 

[StevenRB45]

I'm pretty sure the Ignis has in wheel battery powered sensors which puts me off a bit. I think it also has a D/M flywheel which I'd rather not have and the insurance is considerably more than a Panda. Pity, I rather fancied the Ignis but a Panda looks very much more sensible if we decide to replace Becky. I've only ever messed about with older Fiats, do the newer Pandas ie. say 2015, 16, 17, 18 use in wheel sensors or are they ABS based?

I've got no idea about the Panda... @The Panda Nut can confirm as seem to remember his is a later car.

I think in reality for your usage i.e. buying new and keeping 5 or 6 years will probably never make a difference.

I'm being mildly penalised for rather than doing what I usually do and buying a new or nearly new car buying a full history but very much pre-loved car.

Just washing it now as it's had a busy week...there's not a single panel without an element of "patina" but she's clean enough without me having any level of concern about someone driving into it.

Oh and the entire price of the car would cover the deposit on a Mazda CX5 on HP.

 

[vexorg]

Oh dear, you had to make me go and do maths.......


a quick search found a set of navara wheel and tires to be 255/65/17 which when new will have a diameter of 763mm and a rolling circumference of 2.395Metres

You really dont get it, nothing to do with the wear, that will have a small effect, that will be static though. The speeds changes drastically as you drive, any turning of the wheel creates big differences on the travelled ditance of each wheel. I can draw you and steven a picture with crayons if that will make it clearer.

 

[porta]

You really dont get it, nothing to do with the wear, that will have a small effect, that will be static though. The speeds changes drastically as you drive, any turning of the wheel creates big differences on the travelled ditance of each wheel. I can draw you and steven a picture with crayons if that will make it clearer.

Play nicely

 

[StevenRB45]

You really dont get it, nothing to do with the wear, that will have a small effect, that will be static though. The speeds changes drastically as you drive, any turning of the wheel creates big differences on the travelled ditance of each wheel. I can draw you and steven a picture with crayons if that will make it clearer.

We do thanks.

What you're failing to understand is that the person who wrote the software also knew this..so it is aware.

The car knows exactly what steering angle and throttle/brake position is being applied and also g loadings and direction of travel/yaw..and how far it can expect each wheel to travel and at what speed given that's already being monitored as part of the ESP/TCS system.

If what you were saying is a problem...then all modern esp and traction systems would only work in a dead straight line

All it's doing is monitoring the data it's already looking at for if one wheel is consistently faster than expected. In the case of multiple wheels being out of normal...it'll throw a light as what is observed does not match what is expected.