What's made you grumpy today?

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Mrs J has her regular monitoring appointment at the Edinburgh Eye Pavilion this morning. Today's weather is forecast to be sunshine and frequent showers so I took her up in the car - Becky of course! - The appointment was an early one so we had to travel in the rush hour and it means going right through the middle of town so, Inverlieth Row then up Dundas St, down Hanover St across Princes St, up the, very steep, Mound and across the high street (better known as "the Royal Mile", on past the central library and finally along Lauriston Place to the Eye Pavilion - Listed that just in case anyone's wanting to do a wee Google walk around!

Anyway, through the middle of town and back during rush hour was always going to be "busy" and it was, although not "traffic jam" busy. Spent quite a bit of time in queues at lights though. Being retired I wouldn't normally choose to travel in rush hour so it was a bit of a novelty being able to "people watch" the folk in the cars and vans around me. Plenty of nose picking, smoothing down hair and general scratching, a couple of ladies doing makeup and lots of folk drinking from take away coffee mugs. What's this thing about us all having to have a drink of some sort with us at all times? However by far and away the most disturbing was the number of folk holding and using their mobile phones. Not many, maybe two? actually making a phone call but shed loads of folk texting. They are so obvious. Car stops because the lights have gone to red. You look in your mirror, or at the vehicle alongside, and almost before it stops rolling the hands come off the wheel and drop down into their lap whilst at the same time they look down. Then it's finger action for a few moments and a quick glance up to see if the car in front has moved. This is repeated until they notice the car in front has moved or the car behind toots. The worst this morning was a young woman in a gargantuan SUV behind me who was so intent on texting she didn't notice I had moved and gone through the lights. I think her vehicle was so big that the cars behind couldn't see she had nothing in front of her so hadn't "tooted". By the time I was about 10 car lengths past the lights she still hadn't moved. Where she was stopped there was a bus at the bus stop on her N/S and it was he who gave her a long blast on his horn to "wake her up". Unfortunately by the time she dropped the phone into her lap - or maybe on the floor, I don't know but I could see she'd dropped it - the lights went back to red again so they all missed their "slot".

Then there was the van driver - Rendering, Plastering, Rough casting - in the lane to my left who, every time we came to a halt would grab a large pile of invoices/bills/whatever from the top of his dashboard, examine them for a wee while, throw them back onto the top of the dash and start frantically typing texts with his phone in both hands on the top of the steering wheel in plain view!

Another was a "city gent" in a "posh car" who was coming towards me in very slow moving traffic. He was looking down all the time, never saw him look up as he went past me at about 1.5 to 2 mph - I hope it was an auto box otherwise he was "murdering" his clutch - must have been relying on peripheral vision? again texting on his phone which was down low in his lap. I've been behind people like this before and it's just so frustrating and annoying when you have a standard clutch.

There were other instances but the above gives you a flavour for what I observed. People are just not complying with the law so it needs to be taken out of their hands and mobile phones need to be "neutered" when in cars. Fine to use it for sat nav but texting and making calls just needs to be blocked. I can't believe the clever "Techies" couldn't achieve this and I bet they could make it selective enough that it only blocked the driver's phone? Might cost a few bob to develop the tech but cheaper than killing people?

 

[porta]

@Pugglt Auld Jock iphones have had this capacity for years, senses you’re in a car and ‘plays dead’ or it can send a prescribed text…lots of folk complaining as it was a default setting…bowing to pressure, it now has to be enabled by the user!

 

[PuntoHowTo]

@Pugglt Auld Jock living in a pretty rural area of the country and driving our little-un to the child minder each morning I can assure you it’s not just in slow moving traffic, the amount of cars I follow in the early morning that drift from one side of the road to the other or cross the white line at the verge only to be woken by 10 years of extra gravel, screws and nails going into their tires or, coming towards you at 60mph in your aforementioned plasterers stance with their phone at the top of the wheel. It’s just shocking.

The thing is you can’t easily tell a phone not to work for one persons position in a car versus another. There is not really a way to do that, and if they’re not going to obey the law then they are going to switch off any features that stop them being able to use their phone while driving.

They did trial a phone detecting camera down here a couple of years back, it worked like those signs that flash the speed at you, if it detected a phone making a call going past it would flash the sign up to tell you not to use your phone, but given that smart phones are constantly connected to the internet now and therefore always sending or receiving some information via the network the sign was constantly going off for everyone and they gave up on it

 

[PuntoHowTo]

@Pugglt Auld Jock iphones have had this capacity for years, senses you’re in a car and ‘plays dead’ or it can send a prescribed text…lots of folk complaining as it was a default setting…bowing to pressure, it now has to be enabled by the user!

Apple only introduced driving Focus as part of the new “Focus” app in sept 2021. And users had to set it up, you can set it to auto based on movement but it doesn’t know if you’re the driver or a passenger on a bus. It was never enabled as standard and you could set certain contacts that could override it if they sent you a message.

Edit: when it very first launched it did set itself up and run automatically if it thought you were driving but it was so buggy that it would turn itself on even if you weren’t moving, so most people turned it off straightaway.
Apple changed it very early to have to be set up manually. So unless you had an apple phone and updated to IOS15 before apple updated it again a couple of weeks later you’d have probably missed it event existed

 

[portland_bill]

I was following a builder's van yesterday, initially at a reasonable speed, but hten it slowed a little, and drifted towards the centre line. My following distance is always greater than most, but I backed off further. He was awoken by the oncoming truck with a very loud horn. That didn't deter him, as he drifted right again moments later, gradually slowing, eventually down to 25mph. Thankfully he then turned left, with his phone in hand clearly visible in his mirror.

I think, in addition to the fine of £200 and 6 points, the police officer shuold also confiscate the phone. Give a receipt, and the owner can collect it, from that officer's police station, no sooner than 24 hours after confiscation. Not having the phone for 24 hours, I think, would be a greater deterrent than the fine/points, especially if used for business, or if out of your normal area.

A couple of years ago, I exited a roundabout behind a Ducato van, that failed to add speed, but wandered in his lane. His mirror showed him on his phone. Distracted, as the road bent right, he didn't, and as his front wheel hit the kerb to the grass verge, his phone dropped out the open window. As he mounted the grass, it was an ideal opportunity to pass, only needing to deviate a little to run over the phone. There are still bits in the gutter now.

Last year, in slow traffic, the woman behind was head down just before every stop. Kept creeping towards me, so at each stop, I kept a large gap ahead, so I could also creep to avoid the bump. (I'm seriously considering fitting an additional horn under the rear bumper to awaken these clowns.) Then, approaching in the opposite queue, a police car. I caught his attention, and once alongside, ponited out the woman behind, creeping forward, looking down. The officer waited until she was alongside him, and leant out and tapped her window, frightened her a treat. As we continued to move gently, she was parked on the footpath, and he was crossing the road with his ticket pad. Result.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I think, in addition to the fine of £200 and 6 points, the police officer shuold also confiscate the phone. Give a receipt, and the owner can collect it, from that officer's police station, no sooner than 24 hours after confiscation. Not having the phone for 24 hours, I think, would be a greater deterrent than the fine/points, especially if used for business, or if out of your normal area.

What an absolutely excellent idea PB. Maybe have it destroyed after a reasonable time limit, if not collected?

 

[The Panda Nut]

Even Noop will read out texts to me on the push of a steering wheel button, so there is little need for it. I agree with your thoughts on call neutering when the car is going. We all know it doesnt actually save time and the risks outweigh any perceived benefit.

 

[The Panda Nut]

What an absolutely excellent idea PB. Maybe have it destroyed after a reasonable time limit, if not collected?

Yes 20 hrs and 1 minute! And, make sure there is always a two minute queue.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Even Noop will read out texts to me on the push of a steering wheel button, so there is little need for it. I agree with your thoughts on call neutering when the car is going. We all know it doesnt actually save time and the risks outweigh any perceived benefit.

Whats Noop ?

I have carplay in my car and so Siri takes care of all my driving texting needs as well as Whats App and even Microsoft Teams in case I need to message my boss while driving to the childminders.
To be honest these voice controlled ways of doing things are way, way easier than attempting to drive and text, keep looking up and down from the roads, And I have a fair amount of experience in trying to text and drive as an idiot early 20s driver in company cars, years ago before the bans came in and it was perfectly "legal" to use your phone while driving as no specific law permitted it. Back in the early 2000s when you needed to press the button 4 times to get the letter you wanted.

I still remember fondly as salesman at my company that no one liked being one of the first people to get a ticket for driving while using his phone. Got stopped on his way to work on the day the ban came in.

Thankfully technology has moved on quite a bit since then meaning there is literally no reason or excuse for driving with a phone in your hand.
but even back in 2003 I had a hard wired bluetooth hands free kit in my car, for my Sony Ericsson P800 (which I still have).

 

[portland_bill]

I have carplay in my car and so Siri takes care of all my driving texting needs as well as Whats App and even Microsoft Teams in case I need to message my boss while driving to the childminders.

Even hands-free is a distraction.
Any call or text, or any other communication, puts a picture in your head of the person being communicated with. Your brain will give that picture a greater priority than the one your eyes are seeing. Reaction times to changing events outside are very seriously affected. Thatcham Research have conducted experiments with volunteers, and have determined that being on a phone, hands-free, still reduces the driver's reactions to worse than a driver on the drink-drive limit, but concentrating.
Ideally, bluetoothed to the car just gives you info on who is calling, to enable a decision, must I answer it now, do I need to find somewhere to stop as soon as possible, van I leave it until destination reached, or until I get home, or do I ignore it altogether. Of course, if you are just setting out on a long journey, and that needs to be cancelled, leaving the call until destination reached is a disappointment. However, such a call only needs to be, "can't see you today". Details can be discussed some other time.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Even hands-free is a distraction.
Any call or text, or any other communication, puts a picture in your head of the person being communicated with. Your brain will give that picture a greater priority than the one your eyes are seeing. Reaction times to changing events outside are very seriously affected. Thatcham Research have conducted experiments with volunteers, and have determined that being on a phone, hands-free, still reduces the driver's reactions to worse than a driver on the drink-drive limit, but concentrating.
Ideally, bluetoothed to the car just gives you info on who is calling, to enable a decision, must I answer it now, do I need to find somewhere to stop as soon as possible, van I leave it until destination reached, or until I get home, or do I ignore it altogether. Of course, if you are just setting out on a long journey, and that needs to be cancelled, leaving the call until destination reached is a disappointment. However, such a call only needs to be, "can't see you today". Details can be discussed some other time.

While I agree in principal that anything that divides your attention is going to mean less attention than if you’re concentrating on just one task at a time, I dispute that holding a conversation on a phone is worse than someone who is drink driving.

I’ve not been able to find any such research paper or article to this effect this morning but willing to have a read if you know where I can find it.

Of course everything is relative and I don’t doubt there are people who naturally have less concentration on driving than others without the distractions or alcohol, and equally there are those chronic heavy drinkers who maybe are able to perform at a normal level despite being over the drink drive limit, (compared to others who’ve not been drinking) but the government made their judgement based on risk and decided to allow a set amount of alcohol in the system for drinking when some might argue no alcohol in the system should be allowed.
More controversial is the allowance of illegal drugs in the system up to a point.
They also allowed taking calls hands free, so while it may distract it doesn’t break any law unless the person falls below the threshold for driving without due care and attention.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Even hands-free is a distraction.
Any call or text, or any other communication, puts a picture in your head of the person being communicated with. Your brain will give that picture a greater priority than the one your eyes are seeing. Reaction times to changing events outside are very seriously affected. Thatcham Research have conducted experiments with volunteers, and have determined that being on a phone, hands-free, still reduces the driver's reactions to worse than a driver on the drink-drive limit, but concentrating.
Ideally, bluetoothed to the car just gives you info on who is calling, to enable a decision, must I answer it now, do I need to find somewhere to stop as soon as possible, van I leave it until destination reached, or until I get home, or do I ignore it altogether. Of course, if you are just setting out on a long journey, and that needs to be cancelled, leaving the call until destination reached is a disappointment. However, such a call only needs to be, "can't see you today". Details can be discussed some other time.

Aye PB, it's the distraction factor that's the big problem. You can argue that a driver shouldn't even engage in conversation with passengers - which can often lead to that driver looking at the passenger - and other arguments like that the call, especially where important decissions are called for will cause serious disengagement from driver concentration. But surely the problem is the distraction? So ban Phones for drivers all together and that distraction is removed from the equation.

 

[portland_bill]

I dispute that holding a conversation on a phone is worse than someone who is drink driving.

That's not what I said.
Reaction times measured and compared is the point I made. Someone who is just on the drink-drive limit has reduced reaction times. Someone on the phone is likely to have similar, or worse reaction times, due to the distraction.
A drink-driver, who is not yet drunk, tends to take more care to compensate. We've all seen people on the phone, having thought they might be drunk, until close enough to see the phone, or them speaking.

I do not have a link to the report. I only have a hard copy summary, as part of my training job. As this is part of my training material, supplied by the organisation I work with, I am not able to scan it and publish it here.

Aye PB, it's the distraction factor that's the big problem. You can argue that a driver shouldn't even engage in conversation with passengers - which can often lead to that driver looking at the passenger - and other arguments like that the call, especially where important decissions are called for will cause serious disengagement from driver concentration. But surely the problem is the distraction? So ban Phones for drivers all together and that distraction is removed from the equation.

A conversation with a passenger is a little less distracting. I agree, lots of people have to look at each other, but usually momentary. A passenger in the car is part of the overall picture the driver is dealing with, so tends not to distract as much as a telephone, where the participants have to create a picture in their head.
A few years ago, while teaching a learner, we were followed by an old couple in a Vauxhall Agila (the original square box). They followed us for about half a mile, while arguing, and facing each other the whole time. With a competent learner, I was able to keep my eye on the driver behind, and choose a junction where we could escape the potential hit from behind. Despite that, he did manage a good road position the whole time.

 

[StevenRB45]

Not sure where I stand on hands free...

Don't really see why it's more or less distracting than talking to a passenger.

Will say last accident I had while driving I was on the phone..but they hit me and were not on the phone so in that survey of one not being on the phone makes you a worse driver.

To be fair to him, a Cinquecento broke down on a 60 limit road in the rain coming onto Redheugh Bridge in a dip round a corner, bloke in a Lexus and me spotted it and checked up hard.

Guy in a Ford Focus following me saw it but either too late or had crap tyres on. All the person on my call heard was "woah woah, stop ya bastard"...of me talking to my car as I was trying to get it down from 60 behind a clearly ABS equipped Lexus while I was trying to get a Punto on 165s without ABS to match it. It did, but then the next thing he heard was "screeeech" BANG! Followed by about 20 seconds of choice swear words as I'd only picked the car up a fortnight before...

Don't tend to do it so much these days to be fair car gets angry if you're in the phone more than 5 minutes anyway.

 

[porta]

One of the speeding courses I went on had a section on speeding due to distraction.
Phones being the top with infotainment/satnav being the second. It was one of the big motoring insurance companies statics.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

While I agree in principal that anything that divides your attention is going to mean less attention than if you’re concentrating on just one task at a time, I dispute that holding a conversation on a phone is worse than someone who is drink driving.

That's not what I said. Reaction times measured and compared is the point I made. Someone who is just on the drink-drive limit has reduced reaction times. Someone on the phone is likely to have similar, or worse reaction times, due to the distraction.

How is that not the same thing?
You are literally saying that someone on the phone is likely to have a Worse reaction than someone who is drink driving....?

I've seen plenty of people swerving all over holding a phone or playing about with a phone in their hand. I have however to my knowledge never seen someone swerving all over the road gotten closer and seen they were talking and assumed that was the cause, they could be talking to someone in the car like a baby in the car seat in the back, which I believe studies have shown having children in the car is a major distraction to driving, they could be drunk or on drugs for all I know, but I can't say if someone is swerving all over and they appear to be talking, that the talking has anything to do with it or that they're on a call.

I appreciate if you can't share something that is within company training materials, however if its not open to the public its not open to scrutiny, how was the test conducted? how was it measured? How big was the sample etc. sticking 5 people in a car who have never used hands free and making them talk on the phone while you put them through a hazard perception test that they don't fully understand, may not be an accurate depiction of peoples abilities to drive.

We all hold conversations while driving. as an instructor your life is spent talking to drivers while they are driving.
Like @StevenRB45 I do not see why it is any more or less distracting than talking to a passenger. In theory less so as there is no need to turn to face anyone even subconsciously there is no one there to turn towards so your eyes can remain on the road.

 

[Cheest]

I spent two hours in the car today with Mrs. Cheest and both grandsons. I told Mrs. Cheest that I wished I wore hearing aids just so I could turn them off because neither one of the little poops has an inside voice. I actually had to say what my Dad used to say to us four little turds in the back seat of the Ol' Rambler; "If I have to tell you guys to be quiet once more, dammit, I'm stopping the car and you're getting out and walking home." Smart ass older grandson just said he'd call for an Uber. Smarter ass grandfather reminded him that his phone was dead, grandma and grandpa use Android so there were no Apple cables in the car, Uber doesn't come out to the cornfields and how are you paying for it. Grandma said I was mean. Mean grandpa said she was an enabler to those boys and she could be the chauffeur from now on.

I got my quiet ride home. In fact, grandma hasn't said a word since we got home. I'm enjoying the quiet but there will be hell to pay in another day or two. So worth it.

 

[StevenRB45]

I appreciate if you can't share something that is within company training materials, however if its not open to the public its not open to scrutiny, how was the test conducted? how was it measured? How big was the sample etc. sticking 5 people in a car who have never used hands free and making them talk on the phone while you put them through a hazard perception test that they don't fully understand, may not be an accurate depiction of peoples abilities to drive.

Think this depends on the definition of "on the phone" if you're talking about those people who sit in slow moving traffic phone in lap texting...their reaction time will be precisely as long as they are looking at the phone then how long it takes them to re-focus forward then the actual reaction time on top.

Also phone on ear people...(remember those though bizarrely still popular with truckers and van drivers..) well you can't have full control of the vehicle.

Hands free talking is one thing...but there's many other ways you can be on the phone.

 

[vexorg]

How is that not the same thing?
You are literally saying that someone on the phone is likely to have a Worse reaction than someone who is drink driving....?

I'm with you, and cant see how mobile phones are worse than drunk driving. But there are various definitions of drunk, like in scotland 1 pint will put you over the limit, yet I can imagine most people will be absolutely fine driving after 1 pint.

And the stats claim more accidents are cause by mobile phone use than drink driving, which I can believe too.

Even yesterday I almost saw an accident, on the A9, avereage speed cameras, so cruise control set to 70mph. This mercedes right behind when I was over talking, I thought we was trying to push by as I could see him back and forth in the side mirror. When I pulled back in, he slowly went by texting away on his phone, still wandering across the lane. When he moved back in, further along the road were road work lorries picking up cones, going slow. No slowing from the texting merc, still wandering in the lane thinking he's going to hit that, it was a last second swerve to avoid the truck, so close I thought he'd clipped it.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Hands free talking is one thing...but there's many other ways you can be on the phone.

my understanding of the current law is it is illegal to use or even hold a mobile phone while driving that is not in a holder, the only exception being to make an emergency call to 999

So the people who sit with there phone in their lap, the people who take photos of accidents they’re passing, the “I was just checking…..” and the ones that hold the phone to their ear are all treated the same under law.

The only acceptable use under the law being completely hands free or with the phone fixed in a holder