What could I buy that's more reliable than a 500?

[ahmett]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

I believe it's highly unlikely we'll ever know exactly what is causing this problem, more than some vague guff [for example, as if that's not obvious] about "it's the ESP software" or whatever.

FIAT will eventually roll out a hardware/software fix (and we can't even say "oh, they've replaced hardware, must be a hardware fault") and that will be it, with a few short lines of "explanation".

But the mind boggles at how the hell this got out into the wild.

i dont intend on buying another italian car after this Fiat 500 = ) breaking down 4 times in 4 years is enough for me thank you = ) i am not saying all Fiat 500's break down a lot, but ive experienced enough. My next car should be German!

Moderator's note: This is way off topic, but a good discussion so I've created a new thread for it.

 

[zanes]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

i dont intend on buying another italian car after this Fiat 500 = ) breaking down 4 times in 4 years is enough for me thank you = ) i am not saying all Fiat 500's break down a lot, but ive experienced enough. My next car should be German!

Without going too far off thread, I wouldn't buy German if long term reliability is a high priority.

 

[ahmett]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Without going too far off thread, I wouldn't buy German if long term reliability is a high priority.

My uncles bmw520 reached 450,000 kms before he traded it in. I doubt the fiat 500 can match that.

 

[Officina red]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Reliability is Honda followed by Toyota

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

My uncles bmw520 reached 450,000 kms before he traded it in. I doubt the fiat 500 can match that.

450k/km with 48 breakdowns :devil:

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Reliability is Honda followed by Toyota

I'd have said its the other way around from what I've personally seen and heard

 

[rkt2003]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

I'd have said its the other way around from what I've personally seen and heard

Yes I agree from all the family and friends that have had both makes over 30 years different Honda,s and Toyota,s over that period I would put Toyota top .
German cars seem to live off image imho, my Friend has had two Audi,s,now a Q3 he has had more visits to the garage in the last 5 years than I have with my last 10years with Fiat,s he said he will try Lexus next .

 

[ahmett]

I still think German cars have higher quality components. Of course if my car broke down only once then you can put it to random events.
But i have been very disappointed by Fiat's quality of OEM spare parts, which I think Germans wouldn't do. My Fiat suspension really didnt last long enough and 2 complete battery failures in 2 years.

Even more importantly, when my car broke down, Fiat's attitude towards me was almost hostile. When my dualogic gearbox broke, i went to 2 separate dealers who told me this is a random fault so we cant do anything about it.

So now i am driving a car that still has a faulty dualogic system. I spoke to Fiat and they told me to take it to another dealer, but that i have to pay 40 euros for diagnostics and that fiat cannot tell the dealer to waive this charge. So i have given up and just drive the car as is and hope it wont break down.

 

[zanes]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

German cars seem to live off image imho

This is exactly the conversation I've had with various people.

People buy German cars because of the brand- "Ooo, such and such has bought a new Merc, aren't they doing well?" etc. etc. See also Range Rovers.

People buy Japanese cars because of their reliability- those car makers know this and that is their priority. No one buys a Toyota Avensis to impress the neighbours.

No doubt someone will be along in a minute to say "but what about all those Toyota recalls?" So what about all those Toyota recalls- evidence of a manufacturer that cares, rather than the "sweep it under the carpet, our cars meet all the legal minimum standards, nothing to see here" that comes out of other manufacturers.

Japanese brand dealers also seem to be [generally] amongst the better ones.

 

[TrevC]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Good sum-up Zanes. A friend of mine's wife was very poorly treated by Audi when she had problems with their DSG gearbox. Also, there was a report a couple of years ago in What Car about an Audi owner who had a serious failure on the last day of his 3-year warranty. As it was a Sunday, he couldn't contact Audi, and on the Monday he was told "If you wanted us to pay for it you should have bought an extended warranty".
Personally, if I wanted good reliability/manufacturer backup I'd buy something Japanese or Korean with a long warranty. Having said all that, my 500 TA is approaching 30000 miles/4 years and apart from a very minor leak from a coolant pipe, has had no faults at all.

 

[Novo]

People buy Japanese cars because they are cheap, they love plastic and they must like cars designed by a committee.
Buy a Skoda if you want something reliable and well built, (But with dreaded German parts...) All the taxi drivers on the road can't be wrong.
Surprisingly nice inside too.

 

[portland_bill]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Reliability depends on many factors. Of course the original build quality is important, but so is the way it is used. When working in an AustinRover dealership in the 70's, when warranty work was nearly 50% of the total in the workshop, the same customers kept coming back, regardless of the car. Taking their "unreliable" as a trade-in and reselling it often resulted in no complaints from the new owner, but the original owner was now regularly finding faults with his replacement. My father cannot keep a car going for long without it needing work, my brother is nearly as bad. A quote from the warranty administrator at that time, "There's no such thing as a 'Friday afternoon car', only a 'Friday afternoon owner'".

Take a potentially unreliable make, such as the Fiat, give it to the "wrong" person and it will break weekly. That person will also break an Audi, but possibly less often.

Recently I have ridden in and driven a 13 year old Audi A4 company pool car, 195,000 miles, apart from the dull paint and crap windscreen wiper blades, it drove and rode well. Then recently encountered 3 Skoda Octavias with very sagged seats at 80-90,000 miles.

 

[zanes]

Without meaning to have a go at Ahmett, it's also worth pointing out that his car has been driven very hard.

Generally it seems to be the case that the 500 is pretty reliable, given what we see on here. The two "big problems" I've seen on here recently (aside from the ongoing 1.2 issues) were caused by crash damage that had been bodged and hidden and a long list of work "needed" that was shockingly dishonest (from a FIAT franchised dealer, as I remember, and FIAT UK just didn't give a toss).

There are of course stupid niggles (that FIAT again won't sort) like boot wiring, door handles and washer jets (but that one got fixed I guess?). In terms of engines that guzzle vast amounts of oil due to chocolate piston rings, or automatic gearboxes that are so unreliable warranties are extended outside the UK there seems to be very little.

You could rightfully argue that the majority of 500s are very simple by comparison, but you've got to give FIAT credit for the twinair- aside from cycle beating (not a huge surprise) introducing a new advanced, highly stressed, turbocharged engine without any major problems or "gotchas" is impressive (Mercedes E-class, cough*)


* You probably haven't heard of that- see HERE. Can't beat a good press cover up. Essentially what happened from what I can gather is that the injector manufacturer was alleged to have changed internal adhesives within the piezo injectors away from what they used during the test program to save money.

This caused so many failures that Enterprise et al (who have a contract with Mercedes to provide "like for like" rentals during the warranty) ran out of working E-class diesels for customers. It became a case of not "if" but "when". Production was halted and near brand new vehicles were off the road for months as Mercedes simply couldn't get the replacement injectors- when they did arrive they were extremely tightly allocated and distributed.

That's modern German engineering for you- if it's got the badge on the front who gives a toss. See also BMW 114d.

And yes, as you may have guessed, we had an extremely bad experience with a German car.

 

[zanes]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Reliability depends on many factors. Of course the original build quality is important, but so is the way it is used. When working in an AustinRover dealership in the 70's, when warranty work was nearly 50% of the total in the workshop, the same customers kept coming back, regardless of the car. Taking their "unreliable" as a trade-in and reselling it often resulted in no complaints from the new owner, but the original owner was now regularly finding faults with his replacement. My father cannot keep a car going for long without it needing work, my brother is nearly as bad. A quote from the warranty administrator at that time, "There's no such thing as a 'Friday afternoon car', only a 'Friday afternoon owner'".

I have heard something similar said with regards to the apparent reliability differences between an Audi and a Skoda (essentially the same car):

"The type of person that buys a Skoda is likely to think nothing of a bulb blowing or a wiper splitting, popping into halfords and replacing them for a tenner and a bit of time. The type of person that buys an Audi is likely to take the car back to the dealer and be relieved of rather more cash."

Bonus points if you can spot the generalisation above (more points if you act offended and even more if you act "offended on behalf of someone else").

Personally I think it's more likely down to different supply chains and worker attitude, but made me think.

 

[Sweetsixteen]

Recently sold a Merc C-series diesel Estate.
Engineering was excellent, performance and comfort were great and fuel economy for such a large car was outstanding. It had the right 'ambience',
It was sold because I could not stand the continual niggles and recurring red warning lights, limp modes, injector leaks, bad tyre wear requiring four-wheel alignment more than once, leaking headlights (read 'goldfish bowls'), etc. Quality engineering it might have, but the bits weren't put together very well.
My old Jap jeep put it to shame.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

No doubt someone will be along in a minute to say "but what about all those Toyota recalls?" So what about all those Toyota recalls- evidence of a manufacturer that cares, rather than the "sweep it under the carpet, our cars meet all the legal minimum standards, nothing to see here" that comes out of other manufacturers.

Japanese brand dealers also seem to be [generally] amongst the better ones.

Couldn't have put it better myself

People buy Japanese cars because they are cheap, they love plastic and they must like cars designed by a committee.
Buy a Skoda if you want something reliable and well built, (But with dreaded German parts...) All the taxi drivers on the road can't be wrong.
Surprisingly nice inside too.

Cheap - did you say CHEAP?!?!?!?

Name me a CHEAP Toyota or Honda, in comparison to let say a Ford, or Skoda etc!

They're far from cheap, but still very much value for money as a whole in the long run.

Regarding VAG - all have gone down the pan in the last decade.

Skoda driver is a wanna be Seat driver
Seat driver is a wanna be VW driver
VW driver is a wanna be Audi driver
the Audi driver.....well it goes without saying in most cases

 

[ahmett]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Couldn't have put it better myself



Cheap - did you say CHEAP?!?!?!?

Name me a CHEAP Toyota or Honda, in comparison to let say a Ford, or Skoda etc!

They're far from cheap, but still very much value for money as a whole in the long run.

Regarding VAG - all have gone down the pan in the last decade.

Skoda driver is a wanna be Seat driver
Seat driver is a wanna be VW driver
VW driver is a wanna be Audi driver
the Audi driver.....well it goes without saying in most cases

by German i mean BMW thats the only German car i would buy = )

 

[RUI]

Re: Euro6 1.2 Throttle Response, Hill Start Issues & Watchdog report

Buy the car you like! Do you really want a car thats just reliable? Life would be very boring if you did that with everything.

 

[Vitesse]

Which magazine in their annual car survey rated the Citreon C1 as the most reliable small car for 2014. The first time the Honda Jazz has been beaten for a few years, it came second followed by the Toyota Yaris. Honda Jazz is quite pricey to buy new.

C1 shares the same underpinnings as the Toyota Aygo, in fact it is built in the same factory. So it's basically a Japanese car with a French badge on it and in its latest reincarnation it looks quite cute, in fact it looks similar to a 500 in some aspects.

Not a great lover of French cars normally but the C1 is something I would take a look at.

 

[Melanabb]

I'd like reliable heating and a reliable husband (possibly reliably consistent clothes size too, but that ain't happening )