Technical Vibration on gear change - Panda 4x4 Multijet 106K

[Bonefish Blues]

Morning all, everything's going really well with the 4x4 - an interim oil change with Fuchs oil from Opie has quietened start-up nicely, and I have finally found the right length bolts to be able to fit the 5mm spacers to stop rub on full lock (I fitted 185x65s - as on the Cross, but haven't quite got away with it on 4x4 offset wheels, unlike some others!)
I'm also waiting for the car upholsterer to come back to me on the vinyl to fix the RH bolster - but I think we'll end up with a leather coloured to match, which is no problem (and more durable) if the case.

Just one minor niggle I'm hoping others can help me track down. It's a very slight vibration on gear change, sounds almost like an exhaust rattle. I know it's not a dual-mass flywheel because it hasn't got one, but could it be another clutch symptom - no issue with clutch bite point btw. Possibly engine mounts?

Any thoughts - it's not very noticeable, and I can eliminate it by consciously slowing changes, but I'm the sort who is annoyed by little annoyances, iyswim!

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Why doesn’t it have a dual mass flywheel?

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I don't know - aiui the TA has a dual, these have a single mass. Is that incorrect - parts companies are offering single as far as I can see.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Although the previous (169) model Pandas had a solid flywheel with the MultiJet engine, so far as I know (and I may be wrong) when the MJ is used in the 312/319 model they all have DMFs - hence parts stockists offering both options. (Shop4Parts only offer the DMF as a choice if you select the post 2012 car - and at a reasonable £180 too, for future reference)

 

[jrkitching]

Although the previous (169) model Pandas had a solid flywheel with the MultiJet engine, so far as I know (and I may be wrong) when the MJ is used in the 312/319 model they all have DMFs - hence parts stockists offering both options.

A phone call to shop4parts with the VIN & engine numbers might give you a definitive answer.

If it is the DMF, then I'd suggest replacing it (and the clutch) now; running clearances are tight, and there is potential for costly collateral damage if allowed to develop significant play.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Any links to the sound of a starting-to-need replacement DMF anyone?

 

[jrkitching]

Any links to the sound of a starting-to-need replacement DMF anyone?

If you listen carefully, you might hear a slight rustling noise, usually from the area around your back pocket. It's the sound of your money fluttering its wings as it prepares to leave your wallet.

Seriously, though, whilst I've seen shedloads of instructional videos on how to assess a DMF once you've split the gearbox from the engine, I've not found anything worthwhile to help when everything is still in situ. But at 106k, it's the right kind of mileage for it to be past its best.

 

[Panda IIs]

If you listen carefully, you might hear a slight rustling noise, usually from the area around your back pocket. It's the sound of your money fluttering its wings as it prepares to leave your wallet.

Seriously, though, whilst I've seen shedloads of instructional videos on how to assess a DMF once you've split the gearbox from the engine, I've not found anything worthwhile to help when everything is still in situ. But at 106k, it's the right kind of mileage for it to be past its best.

Just change it; if its original at 106k miles then its done really well! My TA was changed at 50k. Symptoms being rattle through gear stick between 1500 and 3000 rpm second and third gears especially.

Driving style and associated abuse probably has more relevance than accumulated mileage.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

It occurred to me earlier that if this is a clutch and dmf change it would be the first one, in nearly 40 years of motoring.

What other parts, if any, should be changed at the same time? Any idea of the workshop hours to fit?

 

[jrkitching]

What other parts, if any, should be changed at the same time?

This is a general observation, not specific to any particular model or even marque.

I'd give consideration to replacing any wearing parts accessible only by splitting the engine and gearbox, with due regard for the risk of a future failure and the cost of the parts (plus additional labour costs if not doing it yourself). I wouldn't bother replacing otherwise good parts which don't need the 'box off if replacement became necessary at some future date. So, for example, I'd likely change a concentric slave cylinder, but not an externally accessible one.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Mr Clutch say £1607.67

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Mr Clutch say £1607.67

This from a local-to-me Fiat specialist explains why... https://www.fiatworkshop.co.uk/fiat_500_1.2_clutch_removal.shtml (I know its 500 but same process). Their prices here (£600+) excludes the flywheel as this 500 had a solid one.

 

[Panda IIs]

This from a local-to-me Fiat specialist explains why... https://www.fiatworkshop.co.uk/fiat_500_1.2_clutch_removal.shtml (I know its 500 but same process). Their prices here (£600+) excludes the flywheel as this 500 had a solid one.

Seems to me Mr Clutch are "having a laugh"!? at someone's expense? Certainly I would recommend FIAT/Alfa workshop as above if they are in striking distance - good honest bunch of experts that will use OEM parts if available. There are, I'm sure, other good Independents out there if North Herts is not convenient to you @Bonefish Blues

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Fiat Workshop undercuts Captain Clutch-at-Straws by £320ish, just by the by.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Just by way of update, I had a full check at the Fiat Workshop linked above, and their view is also that it's the DMF starting, plus the clutch is high. Good news is they said carry on running it, it's not critical at the moment, but at some point in the not-too-distant future I'll need to sort it.

I do have a very good local mechanic with sensible hourly rates, so I started to look at prices for a clutch, DMF & concentric slave. Shop4Parts comes in at a not insignificant £580ish for what I assume are OEM parts.

Any thoughts on other options, but still good quality, and if so, from where?

(And does anyone know the workshop time to change the above?)

 

[jrkitching]

Good news is they said carry on running it, it's not critical at the moment, but at some point in the not-too-distant future I'll need to sort it.

Just be aware that running clearances are tight and that others have posted about collateral damage from a failing DMF. Some of this collateral damage has added substantially to the repair cost.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Just be aware that running clearances are tight and that others have posted about collateral damage from a failing DMF. Some of this collateral damage has added substantially to the repair cost.

I am, you mentioned it earlier thread. I'm not running this to the death, which is why I'm getting quotes re parts now I have a firm diagnosis (well as firm as it can be without actually embarking on the work!)

Advice from Fiat Workshop is that it's not a 'needs fixing today' issue, so I have a little wriggle room.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Just an associated query whilst I check out parts. Where's the best place to get the relevant OEM part numbers, just to make sure I source compatible parts? (Scarred by Volvo S60 steering racks...don't ask!)

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Just an associated query whilst I check out parts. Where's the best place to get the relevant OEM part numbers, just to make sure I source compatible parts? (Scarred by Volvo S60 steering racks...don't ask!)

Best bet - shop4parts.co.uk Even if not listed on their website, a quick call with your VIN number and they'll get you sorted, at very fair prices too [Edit: just spotted from your earlier posts that you've already been looking there ]

This site will get you many of the numbers: https://fiat.7zap.com/en/gin/33/31917q051870-012/ but still worth a check against VIN

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Just bobbing back on my thread with an update. I saw A1 Clutches (Birmingham based small chain) recommended the other day, so gave them a call. They're insistent, in the face of my asking them to re-check, that it's a SMF, not a DMF. What hope is there?!