Technical Variator

[tjr]

My relay seems to be ok (got the click w MES). The solenoid has a resistance of 15 ohms, how does that compare to yours?

 

[Filipone33]

Buna ziua grup, sunt noul proprietar al unei barchetta sunt din Iași România, am o problema la ea daca ma poate ajuta cineva, cand pornesc sta turatia in 2000 ture pe minut, ulterior mai scade un pic. Consuma cam mult.

 

[tjr]

@Nodnolmick any news on your variator issue? My daughter will be storing her b with me over the winter so I'll probably be trying to get it sorted. Your trick is (still) working fine btw, thanks again!

 

[Nodnolmick]

@Nodnolmick any news on your variator issue? My daughter will be storing her b with me over the winter so I'll probably be trying to get it sorted. Your trick is (still) working fine btw, thanks again!

I changed the solenoid and it didn't change anything, hang my head in shame I've just been using it as is but I'm thinking the next step is a variator repair kit as it's cheap unless I take it apart and find something wrong, it's in a queue of other cars needing work so has been put off until it gets a bit colder and I don't want to drive it so often

 

[s130]

Our "B" of rattles above idle and not what I would call the traditional variator failure dieseling noise around idle RPM.

When ours rattle more then I have found:

1) Oil needs topping up to max or just above max level
2) Oil getting older and nearer change time

Oil level is a tricky one on the "B" (and Punto HGT) because the oil dip stick enter the sump at quite an angle resulting in different readings on both sides of the stick. To counter this I try to ensure the measuring blade sides are vertical / perpendicular to oil/road surface. I also go a little over max.

Even then checking the level can be inconsistent because due to the dip stick being bent in multiple direction in the tube on withdrawal you can often get bad smearing of the oil on the end of the dip stick.

To cater for this I have found that if you only put the dip stick in to either where the plastic handle boss touches the outside of the feeder tube, or the "O" ring higher up does the same then you get a much clear oil marking on the dip stick but obviously well below where it should be. BUT you know exactly how much lower the dip stick could have gone and can compensate for that.

So for me "B" oil checked / measured / set by a combination of "short insertion", "full insertion" and blade faces vertical.

 

[tjr]

I recognise the need for keeping the oil level up as well thanks @s130. I can't speak for @Nodnolmick, but my b variator issue is a different beast (and not the common one either). It appears between 1700-4700rpm ie when the variator is engaged, the rattle is horrendous! When disconnecting the electrical lead to the variator actuator, the rattle will not appear at all, ever.

 

[Nodnolmick]

Our "B" of rattles above idle and not what I would call the traditional variator failure dieseling noise around idle RPM.

When ours rattle more then I have found:

1) Oil needs topping up to max or just above max level
2) Oil getting older and nearer change time

Oil level is a tricky one on the "B" (and Punto HGT) because the oil dip stick enter the sump at quite an angle resulting in different readings on both sides of the stick. To counter this I try to ensure the measuring blade sides are vertical / perpendicular to oil/road surface. I also go a little over max.

Even then checking the level can be inconsistent because due to the dip stick being bent in multiple direction in the tube on withdrawal you can often get bad smearing of the oil on the end of the dip stick.

To cater for this I have found that if you only put the dip stick in to either where the plastic handle boss touches the outside of the feeder tube, or the "O" ring higher up does the same then you get a much clear oil marking on the dip stick but obviously well below where it should be. BUT you know exactly how much lower the dip stick could have gone and can compensate for that.

So for me "B" oil checked / measured / set by a combination of "short insertion", "full insertion" and blade faces vertical.

 

[Nodnolmick]

My oil is up to the right level, First thing I did when the noise started was oil and filter even though I knew it had been done within the last 6000 miles

 

[Nodnolmick]

Yours does the same as mine sounds fine on tickover but sounds like a major engine failure in the mid range, disconnecting the solenoid and it sounds perfect, I've done a few thousand miles this summer and not a hint of a rattle

 

[tjr]

Yours does the same as mine sounds fine on tickover but sounds like a major engine failure in the mid range, disconnecting the solenoid and it sounds perfect, I've done a few thousand miles this summer and not a hint of a rattle

Before going after the variator itself, I want to see that the variator actuator is ok (I doubt that the return spring is faulty (as no electricity-no problem)).

 

[s130]

I recognise the need for keeping the oil level up as well thanks @s130. I can't speak for @Nodnolmick, but my b variator issue is a different beast (and not the common one either). It appears between 1700-4700rpm ie when the variator is engaged, the rattle is horrendous! When disconnecting the electrical lead to the variator actuator, the rattle will not appear at all, ever.

I've not tried disconnecting the variator. I might try that.

My analysis with a mechanics stethoscope is that our rattling is more hydraulic tappet noise which is supported to an extent by worse on star-up after a long pause, time dwell while they are being pumped up, etc. Tappet noise whilst annoying is something that we can put up with and is not detrimental to the valves/seats.

 

[tjr]

Yours does the same as mine sounds fine on tickover but sounds like a major engine failure in the mid range, disconnecting the solenoid and it sounds perfect, I've done a few thousand miles this summer and not a hint of a rattle

Hi @Nodnolmick ,
Any news on the variator issue? So far I have not begun on "mine", but spring is getting closer, and the daughter is keen on getting the variator back in business.

 

[Nodnolmick]

Hi @Nodnolmick ,
Any news on the variator issue? So far I have not begun on "mine", but spring is getting closer, and the daughter is keen on getting the variator back in business.

No as I've not stripped it down yet but I have bought the tool to remove the variator, hopefully I'll get time before the summer

 

[tjr]

No as I've not stripped it down yet but I have bought the tool to remove the variator, hopefully I'll get time before the summer

Hi @Nodnolmick, hope all is well. Just wanted to hear if you've had any success with the variator? I have made zero progress since last post. I'm hoping you got it sorted out..!?

 

[Nodnolmick]

Hi @Nodnolmick, hope all is well. Just wanted to hear if you've had any success with the variator? I have made zero progress since last post. I'm hoping you got it sorted out..!?

Zero progress either as I was still able to use it so now the road tax and MOT have expired I'm refusing to do either until I've at least looked at it, I picked up a couple of cheap secondhand cylinder heads so the plan is to swap the variator and see if something different happens if I can't see anything wrong

 

[jmi]

I had rattling noise whole last summer. Nice car sounds like diesel or that there is some serious problems with the engine. Previous owner told that variator was replaced couple years ago so i assumed that then it should be tappets. And if not tappets, then it has to be something really bad.

After removing covers and timing belt. Well... Attached photo tells rest of the story. One is new one, and another one is one was "replaced couple of years ago".

Anyway, ended to replace variator and all tappets. And now it sounds like it should be. Silent.

 

[tjr]

Good one @Nodnolmick, I hope that'll work as a motivator, and even more that you'll get it sorted! I need something similar... I got more than I bargained for; I was hiding from the rattle job with b odd jobs like replacing the dash illumination, intermittent speedo/rev counter, updating the clock and audio system, but in the process discovered a/the leaky heater matrix ...

@jmi that is quite a difference in looks between the two variators, the old one looks like it's had a tough life..! Perhaps the old one "only" received a service kit as compared to actually being replaced.
The issue that I and OP seem to share may in the end turn out to be the variator, but this rattle is like the reverse of the "classical" variator rattle; it appears between 1700-4700rpm ie when the variator is engaged (the rattle is horrendous). When disconnecting the electrical lead to the variator actuator, the rattle will not appear at all, ever. Do you recall what rpm range your rattle showed up?

Not happy with how the prices of both the variators and solenoid valves have doubled as of late...

 

[jmi]

I had normal rattle. Happening on idling and low rpms. Over 2000-2500 nothing. Currently no any extra sounds on any rpms.

I tought same, that perhaps previous owner did variator overhaul. I did open old variator and it looked that it have newer opened. Also, if you look repair kits, there should be nylon (assume it is nylon) washer. My variator didn't have it. Only spring...

But previous owner had made some repairs as all valve seals were replaced and everything was clean. He told that he did made head overhaul and it did look like it. Except that variator.

And agree. Looking old posts saying that variator cost some 100-150 euros. Well, prices have been tripled...

 

[Nodnolmick]

Good one @Nodnolmick, I hope that'll work as a motivator, and even more that you'll get it sorted! I need something similar... I got more than I bargained for; I was hiding from the rattle job with b odd jobs like replacing the dash illumination, intermittent speedo/rev counter, updating the clock and audio system, but in the process discovered a/the leaky heater matrix ...

@jmi that is quite a difference in looks between the two variators, the old one looks like it's had a tough life..! Perhaps the old one "only" received a service kit as compared to actually being replaced.
The issue that I and OP seem to share may in the end turn out to be the variator, but this rattle is like the reverse of the "classical" variator rattle; it appears between 1700-4700rpm ie when the variator is engaged (the rattle is horrendous). When disconnecting the electrical lead to the variator actuator, the rattle will not appear at all, ever. Do you recall what rpm range your rattle showed up?

Not happy with how the prices of both the variators and solenoid valves have doubled as of late...

Mine has recently developed the intermittent Speedo too plus I need to replace the soft top among a load of other small jobs, these things never get done while you want to keep using the car

 

[tjr]

@jmi good catching the missing washer, though disappointing that it was missed last time it was serviced.
@Nodnolmick yup and especially when there are workarounds like disconnecting the variator solenoid or giving the dash a hard-ish slap to get the speedo going again...
I'm trying to learn about VVT-variators in general and the Fiat/Alfa/Lancia(?) Variatore di Fase Dinamico (VFD) specifically. Unlike some of the other VVT's the b VFD more simply has a on/off-function with oil pressure working against springs. Digging around the internets, here and there, others with engaged-variator-rattle do pop up (misery likes company). I haven't been able to find THE/A claimed cause, but there seems to be theories of reduced oil pressure causing this malfunction. The b that I'm the current caretaker of, seems to have received varying levels of care (I'm discovering missing or loose screw/nuts here and there). Perhaps oil and/or filter changes have been missed as well causing clogging. I suspect I'll be taking the service kit path in the future, but before that the actuator (after the heater matrix etc...). I found the VFD-links below interesting reads concerning function and what to pay attention to when servicing the beloved variator.
https://www.alfaowner.com/threads/v...experiences-and-speculations.1211393/#replies

https://www.alfaowner.com/threads/using-the-ts-variator-repair-kit-my-experiences.212534/