Technical Variator, differences, interchangeability, and sourcing

[tjr]

The variator in my daughter's b -95 is acting up, and I have been trying to collect facts about the thing. I'm reaching out for help, and at the same time trying to share some of the info I have collected, to be commented and/or corrected:

The variator is becoming increasingly difficult to source new/unused and thus the prices are going up. However successful, this is an ambition to collect information about them, in one place, in an effort to increase the availability for the vehicles and owners in need, now and even more so in the future. I'm hoping that fact vs fancy can be sorted out over time collectively.

Much of the factual information about the variator(s) is, to me, shrouded in fog above the basic principle of it. Even basics like; who made them and/or are they still being made? I would expect that this information is available in the industry and I'm hoping it can be shared here.

The barchetta ePER lists two part numbers for variators originally equipped on the barchetta:

1. 1995 - march 1999 -> part number 552 027 72
2. 1999 - 2003 -> part number 608 156 44

What is the factual difference between the two? I've read the claims, rumours and marketing talk, but I've not been able to find facts (and/or pictures) from actual comparisons from the people who handled(s) them (some in droves).

Companies selling variators (new, used and/or refurbished) claim that the variators with the part numbers below are interchangeable (new to old?):
717 383 60 (a)
608 156 44 barchetta 3/1999-6/2003 (a)
608 135 01 (until 7/2002) (a)
608 118 15 (until 5/1997) (a)
608 113 20 (until 3/1995) (a)
606 661 99 (a)
606 519 65 (up to 1/199(?)) (a)
606 179 17
606 038 04
552 027 72 barchetta 1995-3/1999 (a)
Anyone know the factual differences between all these part numbers? Is the latest the best?
(a) part number also listed with http://v4.barchetta-lexikon.de/index.php/lexikon/d/dieselteil

The same companies also claim that these variators can be found on/fit the following makes and models:
Alpha Romeo:
ALFA ROMEO 146 1.4 1.6 1.8 2.0 16V TS /
ALFA ROMEO 145 1.4 1.6 1.8 2.0 16V TS /
ALFA ROMEO 147 1.6 2.0 16V TS /
ALFA ROMEO GTV 1.8 2.0 16V TS /
Alpha Romeo Spider 1.8 2.0 16V /
Alpha Romeo 166 2.0 16V TS /
ALFA ROMEO GT 1.8 16V TS /
Alpha Romeo 155 1.6 1.8 2.0 /
Alpha Romeo 156 1.6 1.8 2.0
FIAT:
Fiat Barchetta 1.8 16 V /
(Brava HGT (South America)?)
Fiat Punto 188 1.8 16V / (same as Punto II HGT?)
FIAT COUPE 1.8 16V /
Fiat Stilo 1.8 16V
Lancia:
(Lancia Dedra 1.8 16v V.V.T. ?)
Lancia Lybra 1.8 16 V /
Lancia Delta ll 1.8 16V
Can anyone confirm the above? The make/model within parentheses, in Italic with question marks behind, have been added by me, it remains to be confirmed!

The Fiat Pratola Serra modular engines (also known as family B engines for the 4 cylinder units, and family C engines for the 5 cylinder units) are a family of engines produced by the Fiat Group since 1994 and used in Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Lancia and Jeep vehicles.
(They are developed to withstand turbocharging.)
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Pratola_Serra_modular_engines

717 154 50 is a service kit containing a plastic/teflon/nylon washer and spring.

 

[Wiltshire Chris]

Good effort in collecting the information. I've not translated it yet but the Barchetta lexicon has a few pages on the variator which may have some useful bits

Dieselteil

Umgangssprachlich für den Phasenversteller der Einlaßnockenwelle. Durch dieses Teil wird die Nockenwelle per Öldruck in der Phase verstellt (elektrisch gesteuert über ein Ventil), wenn der Öldruck abgeschaltet wird, müßte es per Feder wieder zurückgestellt werden. Müßte. Außer, wenn die Feder...

v4.barchetta-lexikon.de

 

[tjr]

EDIT above thanks to @Wiltshire Chris, I included info from http://v4.barchetta-lexikon.de/index.php/lexikon/d/dieselteil (as it was 240214, thanks to Heiko Jahn). I don't know how long I can edit, but I probably should add some BASIC info on function and ailment of the variator.

 

[jmi]

Like written in other thread. I just replaced variator on my B few months back. And i assume that old one was original, or quite close to it. And my B is from december 1996, so it is originally equipped with part number 552 027 72.

And new one part number was 608 156 44. So i probably had both versions in my hands. On outside, no any difference. All dimensions, holes etc were identical. But of course i did not open new one, so i do not know was there some internal differences.
But i did open old one and i still have it. If needed, i can take photos of it.

 

[tjr]

Like written in other thread. I just replaced variator on my B few months back. And i assume that old one was original, or quite close to it. And my B is from december 1996, so it is originally equipped with part number 552 027 72.

And new one part number was 608 156 44. So i probably had both versions in my hands. On outside, no any difference. All dimensions, holes etc were identical. But of course i did not open new one, so i do not know was there some internal differences.
But i did open old one and i still have it. If needed, i can take photos of it.

Thanks @jmi, photos would be excellent. I suspect I'll uncover a 552 027 72 as well, so already there a comparison will have merit

As these vehicles get older they will have more parts replaced, and some DIY'ers (me) might not update service records as religiously as the shops. Knowing what we have and what we get might have value for someone, sometime...

Suggestions concerning ID, photo(s), and feedback;
- on YouTube a Finnish gentleman had an opened up variator, with the components standing up, semi sunk in (hard) foam plastic resulting in a nice exploded view.
- any discovered identification numbers/symbols might also have merit
- a brief description of symptoms (eg diesel engine rattle at idle) and, if available, identified faults (eg shortened spring and/or flattened washer)
- not relevant in your case @jmi, but if choosing to use the service kit 717 154 50, how it solved the problem/symptoms.

 

[Wiltshire Chris]

EDIT above thanks to @Wiltshire Chris, I included info from http://v4.barchetta-lexikon.de/index.php/lexikon/d/dieselteil (as it was 240214, thanks to Heiko Jahn). I don't know how long I can edit, but I probably should add some BASIC info on function and ailment of the variator.

Just a thought, you/we could turn what you've found into a guide which would make it easier to locate in the future?

 

[the green vanper]

I had an Alfa Romeo 156 with a 2.0 Twin Spark engine some time ago. The problem with the variator in that engine was that it was not oiled enough and during a cold start the variator was almost dry... They were one of the less reliable engine parts, but apparently the exact same variator in the Stilo HGT (which was a much lighter car with a more powerful engine, it had appx 20 HP more) was able to live longer than the engine itself.

I've read on a Polish Alfa forum that 3 local mechanics tried to find a solution to make the variator live longer and with an aditionnal plastic washer and as far as I remember a harder spring they created some kind of non-return valve to maintain the oil inside the variator. The modification cost was very low, but efficient at the same time.

A couple of years ago the forum was offline, but I'll try to check if I have any notes on it.

If you plan to buy a used variator just avoid those from the Alfa Twin Spark engines

 

[Wiltshire Chris]

More lexikon digging (thank you ePer for telling me that Variator is SPRITZZEITVERSTELLER in German) finds more description on the variator and some photos of a dismantled one

Phasenwandler

NamenDer Phasenwandler wird auch Phasensteller oder Phasenscheiber genannt, auf italienisch Variatore di Fase Dinamico, abgekürzt VFD - welche sich auf dem Motordeckel neben dem barchetta-Schriftzug befindet. Das erste Patent für eine Nockenwellenverstellung wurde 1970 von Fiat...

v4.barchetta-lexikon.de

 

[tjr]

Just a thought, you/we could turn what you've found into a guide which would make it easier to locate in the future?

Yes, if nothing else for redundancy

(I can no longer edit #1...)

A) perhaps all interested add links, info and pictures here in the thread.
B) the info is collected and shaped into (open living (hopefully)) guide(s) Can the guides here be edited by all interested (wikipedia style)?

The info/guides could be divided up in a few sections/chapters/documents for it to be manageable:

1. Variator/VVT/VFD function/description
2. Ailments and introduction to solutions
3. DIY guides collection (a) variator swap, b) spring and washer swap, c) oil duct cleanse d) variator renovation)
4. Part number description and car model sharing

For A) fill this thread up!
For B) who wants to sort and shape what?

Copyright needs to be handled/respected.

 

[tjr]

I've read on a Polish Alfa forum that 3 local mechanics tried to find a solution to make the variator live longer and with an aditionnal plastic washer and as far as I remember a harder spring they created some kind of non-return valve to maintain the oil inside the variator. The modification cost was very low, but efficient at the same time. A couple of years ago the forum was offline, but I'll try to check if I have any notes on it.

Excellent find, I hope you will be able re-find it/dig it up!

If you plan to buy a used variator just avoid those from the Alfa Twin Spark engines

The variator is a dragon with many heads... It would be interesting to know exactly what technically went wrong in/with the 2.0TS variator (and not in the Stilo HGT), and which variator part number(s) were involved in the two models?

On one end of the spectrum some claim that "the variator" (part number?) is pretty much bullet proof and all that is needed is a new spring (and possibly washer) and perhaps an oil duct clean (in engine and/or variator). On the other end some claim damage to the variator splines (part number?) and the necessity of an exchange. In between you have those who claim a 60-80% success ratio with a spring swap. I wonder what is/was wrong with the remaining 20-40% (oil duct and/or spline)? There is apparently also a risk of incorrect re-assembly of the variator upon replacing the spring/washer, great description here; https://www.alfaowner.com/threads/v...unction-experiences-and-speculations.1211393/

 

[the green vanper]

The Twin Spark engine (the only one to have the variator was 2.0, at least on the 156) had a 'missing' oil duct that would oil the radiator. Of course the oil was being sprayed all over the valves area, so finally also the variator. But before the oil got into the radiator itself after the engine was started, it was taking some time, significantly longer than in case of the Stilo HGT for example, which had the oil duct in a correct place.

And the variator in the alfa Twin Spark 2.0 was running dry for this time. We all know what does it mean

The non-return valve idea was to keep the oil inside the variator when the engine was not running. So it has a small amount of oil for the start. To minimise the damage.

During standard operation the oil was flowing through the variator.

As far as I remember, it was said that the 156 2.0 TS and the Stilo HGT have exactly the same variator type / model.

And yes, I remember that it was said to buy the repair kit and then add the other elements to make the non-return valve.

As said before, I'll try to source those information and will post here

 

[jmi]

Cleaned up and took couple of photos of my old variator.

There were no any plastic washers inside, like rebuild kit has. And I believe that newer units has. Splines on all parts looks to be really good shape and there is no any extra play. End on shaft there is two spring washers (or what you call them). those have some wear. Not much, but as they looks to have some load, this has caused some wear. Interesting is that spring itself has some wear on it's side. Hard to see on photo, but there is some. And also some wear marks can be seen in cavity where spring is.

Only numbers on the parts are in splined moving parts. Another one has number 88598. And another one has almost similar D152 88598. Does not match to any numbers tjr listed in first post.

All wearing, oil browned areas etc shows that this Variator is not new. It might even be original one. Or if it has been replaced, work has been done couple decades ago. Oil darkening is approx same level what i have in camshaft cover. Head has been reworked some point and it was much cleaner.

And like already wrote. Splines looks to be in really good shape without play. Hard to believe rattling is coming from there. As variator is old, there is oil burn almost every surface what is not touching other surfaces, you can see what parts are touching. Like both moving parts to both ends of the casings. As smaller splined part can touch end of the outer casing when idling, it is possible that it vibrates against casing and causes rattling noise.

- J

 

[tjr]

Cleaned up and took couple of photos of my old variator.

There were no any plastic washers inside, like rebuild kit has. And I believe that newer units has. Splines on all parts looks to be really good shape and there is no any extra play. End on shaft there is two spring washers (or what you call them). those have some wear. Not much, but as they looks to have some load, this has caused some wear. Interesting is that spring itself has some wear on it's side. Hard to see on photo, but there is some. And also some wear marks can be seen in cavity where spring is.

Only numbers on the parts are in splined moving parts. Another one has number 88598. And another one has almost similar D152 88598. Does not match to any numbers tjr listed in first post.

All wearing, oil browned areas etc shows that this Variator is not new. It might even be original one. Or if it has been replaced, work has been done couple decades ago. Oil darkening is approx same level what i have in camshaft cover. Head has been reworked some point and it was much cleaner.

And like already wrote. Splines looks to be in really good shape without play. Hard to believe rattling is coming from there. As variator is old, there is oil burn almost every surface what is not touching other surfaces, you can see what parts are touching. Like both moving parts to both ends of the casings. As smaller splined part can touch end of the outer casing when idling, it is possible that it vibrates against casing and causes rattling noise.

- J

Thank you kindly @jmi!
Would you measure the length of the old spring? Apparently strength is not lost in a spring, but length is. New springs are supposedly around 60mm. Theory has it that the idle rattle is caused by a shortened spring
I made notes of the numbers from the dissected German variator, will post them.
Would you consider carefully sanding off the rust from the “knob” of the variator (outer part, away from the cam shaft). The German one had some letters and numbers on it….

 

[Wiltshire Chris]

Just some extra data. One advantage of having developed openPer is that I can run ad-hoc queies against the data so I looked for all parts with an English description containing the word 'variator'. This gives us 18 part numbers:

• 7777221
• 55181254
• 55195809
• 55202772
• 55213710
• 55215215
• 55215216
• 59116686
• 60513297
• 60534502
• 60534503
• 60557025
• 60609616
• 60666199
• 60815644
• 71738360
• 71741145
• 71741146

which can then be matched to 174 combinations of vehicle catalogue and part number (see attached). You can search ePer with the part number and then use the 'All drawings' option to show the various models for that part number if you want more information. I've not done any matching to the lists from other sources.

Query for my own records:

SELECT DISTINCT CT.CAT_COD, CAT_DSC, GRP_COD, SGRP_COD, SGS_COD, P.PRT_COD FROM codes_dsc C
JOIN parts P ON P.CDS_COD = C.CDS_COD
JOIN tbdata T ON T.PRT_COD = P.PRT_COD
JOIN catalogues CT ON CT.CAT_COD = T.CAT_COD
WHERE CDS_DSC LIKE '%VARIATOR%' AND LNG_COD = '3'

 

[jmi]

I did carefully sand variator casing using 600 grit wet sand paper. I am able to see machining grooves, but no any hints of any text. Yes, i didn't sand it shiny, just removed worst rust. But no, no Any markings in the end of casing. See photo.

Then to the spring. It is not straight...

I attached photo where you can see it. Top of the spring is level with caliber jaw, and lower has significant cap in on side.. It is bend to the side where wear is. Longer side is 55mm and shorter 53.6mm. It is shorter on side where spring wire ends are.

If new spring length is 58-60mm, depending source. Yes, this spring has serious issues...

- J

 

[the green vanper]

having developed openPer

Can you please tell a little bit more about it? is it described somewhere? Have you shared it?

 

[Wiltshire Chris]

Can you please tell a little bit more about it? is it described somewhere? Have you shared it?

It now runs the forum's ePer link. You can read about the background a bit here:

About openPER | FIAT ePER - Online spare parts catalogue

and @ben's announcement for it here:

New Feature - ePER supercharges to become openPER

Well you've been asking for it for years (nearly 10 to be exact!) and now it's finally here, the forum's ePER database has been upgraded to v84, which is the last DVD version that was released - hurrah! But wait! There's more! If you were just expecting me to have put the DVD online then you...

www.fiatforum.com

If you've any more questions on it then just shout, the source code is on github for those interested in it.

 

[s130]

Specifically for the Barchetta the ePER 84 has:

60811320
60811815 - 02/03/1995
60813501 - 06/02/1997
60815644 - 07/01/1999
55202772 - 10/06/2003

For the 644 to 772 change then the modification details are:

10925 - ADOPTION OF NEW PHASE SHIFTER (MOT 4829005)

As always one should go with the latest version / P.No if compatible.

 

[s130]

I attached photo where you can see it. Top of the spring is level with caliber jaw, and lower has significant cap in on side.. It is bend to the side where wear is. Longer side is 55mm and shorter 53.6mm. It is shorter on side where spring wire ends are.

If new spring length is 58-60mm, depending source. Yes, this spring has serious issues...

Temperature?

The spring is under compression and expansion / expansion and compression depending on the angle/anvance change. Pretty similar to any spring.

However cold start at -10 deg.C heating up to say 100 deg.C and going through many expansion/compression cycles in the process. Repeat again and again, sometimes 20 deg.C to 100 deg.C then it is probably not surprising that the spring length does not return to original new length.

One could probably find some detailed spring theory and analysis and stress testing on the web somewhere.

If the variators are becoming rare and expensive, as well as the repair kits, then it would be interesting to know how much of a difference the variator really make in physical driving as opposed to a pure bench test.

One could just weld it up fixed or have a new solid boss machined up. To that one could also fit a variable cam sprocket if you wanted to play/fine tune the setup.

I think I read somewhere that someone/people had run with the variator actuator valve disconnected and could not really detect much of a performance change.

 

[jmi]

Of course temperature affects these. And as it is all the time in tension, and under load looks like it is pressed almost to maximum, how hot oil affects, etc, etc, etc. There is a lot of different things what can modify steel characteristics and adjust the spring.

This can be seen on my old variator spring. How it has made bend, even that all surfaces it touches are flat. But spring is not anymore.

Anyway. Your idea machining dummy variator is interesting. On normal road use, i believe it should be working solution and nobody could tell difference is variator in use or not.

- J

ps. -10... We had couole weeks back some -25, in north -35 and under. Yes, this started to make problems with all cars. Like my Croma lost Both outer drive shaft boots...