Technical Tyre wear question

[AnthonyH]

As @vexorg says heat from a blow torch may shift it , but don't set fire to anything
I would say give it some oil to soak in for when you have another go , it may help. Personally I just use engine oil in an oil can, not WD40 or anything as too thin and soon washes off.
I take it the two hammers trick did do any good then?

The two hammers trick didn't work unfortunately.

I used penetrating oil several times over a few days. I will try regular oil next time. The stilsons would work too i'm sure.

I was something of the mind that the tie rods would be an easy job I could tack on to the control arms, but alas no, so I need to prepare properly, as I need two cars for the next week or so. I have a little exhaust problem to attend to in the mean time anyways, no rest with the GPs or EVOs!

 

[vexorg]

Rather than oil, you get penetrating fluid, like Plusgas, that's designed to work itself to seized parts.

And maybe something like stillson grips as they bite in as the tighten rather than risk rounding parts (but only on bits you dont really care about as they will mark things quite badly)

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

As @vexorg says heat from a blow torch may shift it , but don't set fire to anything
I would say give it some oil to soak in for when you have another go , it may help. Personally I just use engine oil in an oil can, not WD40 or anything as too thin and soon washes off.
I take it the two hammers trick did do any good then?

Aye, us "old hands" tend to talk glibly about "turning a blow torch" on it. We tend to forget this is a skill most of us learned under supervised conditions. There's an awful lot of flammable stuff in vehicles which can be easily set alight and the greatest care needs to be taken when deploying a naked flame.

 

[AnthonyH]

I bought a torch some time ago, but haven't used it, so it resides outside in a storage container, safe and dry and not in the house!

I watched some videos of how to use it, but i'm a little dubious about its value, leverage would be better in many cases, and also an angle grinder would cut through ok i guess. Heat would also weaken bolts, and as I like to re-use them, after careful cleaning i'm a bit relucant to try this unless as a last resort.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Rather than oil, you get penetrating fluid, like Plusgas, that's designed to work itself to seized parts.

And maybe something like stillson grips as they bite in as the tighten rather than risk rounding parts (but only on bits you dont really care about as they will mark things quite badly)

I'm not a great fan of Mole type grips for jobs like this as they tend to slip easily. A Stilson will grip much better as it bites in the more you lean on it. Tends to leave quite deep marks if the components are tight though, but I've used them often in this sort of circumstance.

There's a genre of release fluid which is sometimes useful in circumstances like this. It freezes the fitting - down to minus 43 degrees C they claim: https://www.dtc-uk.com/loctite-freeze-release-spray-400ml/ I've used it, this actual brand, with varying success. The "trouble", if you can call it that, with it is that you have to give the workpiece a couple of really good soakings with the fluid (which seems to work by evaporation) to get the cold to really "bit". A quick spray, as you would do with WD40 or Plus Gas, will not suffice as the cold won't penetrate. I used nearly half a can on a seized lawnmower blade bolt. It did loosen it but it wasn't very cost effective. It works by contracting and expanding the fitting with the cold, much as heating it would expand and contract it, but without the danger of the open flame.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I watched some videos of how to use it, but i'm a little dubious about its value, leverage would be better in many cases, and also an angle grinder would cut through ok i guess. Heat would also weaken bolts, and as I like to re-use them, after careful cleaning i'm a bit relucant to try this unless as a last resort.

I have to plead guilty to using heat but It tends to be a last resort. I think you raise a very good point about using extremes of heat on anything like this as there's always the danger of altering the hardness/crystalline structure of the metal - not a good thing. I'm much keener on the vibroshocking technique which I've mentioned at length in the past.

 

[AnthonyH]

I have to plead guilty to using heat but It tends to be a last resort. I think you raise a very good point about using extremes of heat on anything like this as there's always the danger of altering the hardness/crystalline structure of the metal - not a good thing. I'm much keener on the vibroshocking technique which I've mentioned at length in the past.

It is interesting how the different people on here have a different go to. I know i'm going to be put right here, but I'd say your go to is vibro shock, mike's is oil bathing, and pandanut's is an angle grinder. As they say, there's a lot of way of skinning a cat.

 

[vexorg]

I watched some videos of how to use it, but i'm a little dubious about its value, leverage would be better in many cases

Heat is the ultimate fix for many seized parts. But it takes a lot of heat, as in the nut here starts to glow a nice red.
Very simple theory, the metal expands and breaks the tension.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

It is interesting how the different people on here have a different go to. I know i'm going to be put right here, but I'd say your go to is vibro shock, mike's is oil bathing, and pandanut's is an angle grinder. As they say, there's a lot of way of skinning a cat.

Suppose it's all about what's worked for you in the past? I first saw the vibro method being used on some small rocker cover retaining bolts. The older chap was tapping away at one with what I think you'd call a "toffee hammer" Just repeatedly tapping away, not particularly hard on it but doing it for quite a while. Every now and again he'd try a socket on it and when it didn't move he went back to the tapping. I'd guess he tapped away at it for maybe 8 to 10 minutes, with a cup of tea which I fetched to keep him going, and finally, greatly to my amazement, the wee bolt came out nice as you like.

Vibroshocking is a name that encompasses a range of techniques. In it's simplest form it's exactly what I witnessed that old chap doing and at the other end involves and air hammer and special shallow sockets. The basis behind it though is the same which is to apply a non destructive shock load to the threads of the seized fixing.



You need a bit of patience, as is demonstrated in this video - don't rush it. If you do, or apply too much force to the lever, you'll end up snapping the fixing. You need to let the vibrations do the job then you'll find it comes loose without too much force needed. I actually haven't snapped a bleed nipple since I bought this tool. The important thing about vibro shock though is to understand how the vibration is acting on the fixing. So, something like a bleed nipple, manifold nut/bolt, diesel injector, in fact anything where the force is transferred from the socket, through the solid fixing, into the threads with something solid, like a casting, to resist the forces will work well. A situation where the force is not applied to the threads will almost certainly fail so, for instance, a bolt going through a hole in, maybe a wing or similar, with a washer and nut on the other side will almost certainly not respond to this.

Here's another one which vividly illustrates how it's the forces being applied to the threads themselves which gets the job done.



Keep watching 'till he tackles the second stud

 

[AnthonyH]

Suppose it's all about what's worked for you in the past? I first saw the vibro method being used on some small rocker cover retaining bolts. The older chap was tapping away at one with what I think you'd call a "toffee hammer" Just repeatedly tapping away, not particularly hard on it but doing it for quite a while. Every now and again he'd try a socket on it and when it didn't move he went back to the tapping. I'd guess he tapped away at it for maybe 8 to 10 minutes, with a cup of tea which I fetched to keep him going, and finally, greatly to my amazement, the wee bolt came out nice as you like.

Vibroshocking is a name that encompasses a range of techniques. In it's simplest form it's exactly what I witnessed that old chap doing and at the other end involves and air hammer and special shallow sockets. The basis behind it though is the same which is to apply a non destructive shock load to the threads of the seized fixing.



You need a bit of patience, as is demonstrated in this video - don't rush it. If you do, or apply too much force to the lever, you'll end up snapping the fixing. You need to let the vibrations do the job then you'll find it comes loose without too much force needed. I actually haven't snapped a bleed nipple since I bought this tool. The important thing about vibro shock though is to understand how the vibration is acting on the fixing. So, something like a bleed nipple, manifold nut/bolt, diesel injector, in fact anything where the force is transferred from the socket, through the solid fixing, into the threads with something solid, like a casting, to resist the forces will work well. A situation where the force is not applied to the threads will almost certainly fail so, for instance, a bolt going through a hole in, maybe a wing or similar, with a washer and nut on the other side will almost certainly not respond to this.

Here's another one which vividly illustrates how it's the forces being applied to the threads themselves which gets the job done.



Keep watching 'till he tackles the second stud

Its quite ironic how the vibro shocks are good for bleeder nipples, as i broke a couple of those at the start of the year. I was doing the back brakes some time around January/February, has it really been that long?

The videos are quite cool I liked the skill and enthusiasm of these guys, it was quite inspiring, so i've just been googling to see what tools are around and what price. I can imagine that an impact gun works by a kind of shock treatment, but can only work if its on the end of a bolt. There is certainly a skill involved in tapping hammers manually that i couldn't hope to learn.

 

[bugsymike]

What is it they say? "If in doubt give it a clout"

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Its quite ironic how the vibro shocks are good for bleeder nipples, as i broke a couple of those at the start of the year. I was doing the back brakes some time around January/February, has it really been that long?

The videos are quite cool I liked the skill and enthusiasm of these guys, it was quite inspiring, so i've just been googling to see what tools are around and what price. I can imagine that an impact gun works by a kind of shock treatment, but can only work if its on the end of a bolt. There is certainly a skill involved in tapping hammers manually that i couldn't hope to learn.

If you've still got a hex head to work with then the vibro works very well. You do need a substantial compressor to supply the air hammer though so it's probably only the more enthusiastic amongst us who'll invest in a piece of kit like that. This is the one I have: https://www.ukhs.tv/Wolf-Dakota-100-14CFM-3HP-150psi-Portable-Air-Compressor-100L and it just about keeps up with stuff like air impact wrenches and the air hammer/chisel

A broken stud, like the one in the second video, I'd probably weld a nut to it. The extreme heat and cooling of welding the nut on causes the stud to get a lot hotter than the surrounding casting and then it cools of course. This expansion and contraction cracks the rust and loosens the stud. Again though, you need a welding plant to do this - and the skill to weld reasonably proficiently. It's very "doable" with just an ordinary MMA (stick) welder and you can pick them up quite cheaply used on ebay etc. I have an SIP Topweld and I've seen similar machines going for £20 to £30. Unlike a MIG/MAG machine there's very little to go wrong with them, no wire drive motors, diodes, wire guides or hand torch. so a good chance of getting one which works. Expect to spend some time acquiring basic operator skills though.

 

[bugsymike]

I do have an air chisel with various punches etc. but stopped using it due to respect for my neighbours and my ear drums

 

[AnthonyH]

If you've still got a hex head to work with then the vibro works very well. You do need a substantial compressor to supply the air hammer though so it's probably only the more enthusiastic amongst us who'll invest in a piece of kit like that. This is the one I have: https://www.ukhs.tv/Wolf-Dakota-100-14CFM-3HP-150psi-Portable-Air-Compressor-100L and it just about keeps up with stuff like air impact wrenches and the air hammer/chisel

A broken stud, like the one in the second video, I'd probably weld a nut to it. The extreme heat and cooling of welding the nut on causes the stud to get a lot hotter than the surrounding casting and then it cools of course. This expansion and contraction cracks the rust and loosens the stud. Again though, you need a welding plant to do this - and the skill to weld reasonably proficiently. It's very "doable" with just an ordinary MMA (stick) welder and you can pick them up quite cheaply used on ebay etc. I have an SIP Topweld and I've seen similar machines going for £20 to £30. Unlike a MIG/MAG machine there's very little to go wrong with them, no wire drive motors, diodes, wire guides or hand torch. so a good chance of getting one which works. Expect to spend some time acquiring basic operator skills though.

I've just googled for the Sip topweld and at that price level it interests me. I always thought they were much more expensive, i will further google and watch some youtube, i know sooner or later i'm going to need something like this. For now i've avoided something almost impossible to remove then breaking and leaving the car somewhat trashed, so i'm future proofing myself. And its just interesting to learn about new things

The Wolf Dakota looks great, i'd need a garage for that. Most of my tools are in the porch, and a few in the conservatory. Our garage was converted into an extra bedroom by someone else many years ago.

 

[AnthonyH]

What is it they say? "If in doubt give it a clout"

The odd thing I learnt about putting the new control arm on was that the ball joint wanted to be in exactly the right position before it'd drop in. I hammered and wrested for what seemed like ages and then it just dropped in easy as you like without me doing anything. I was WTF is that about LOL.

As i'm reading this back, its not sounding particularly relevant to what you've said, but hey its late...

 

[AnthonyH]

So what exactly could I do with a Sip Top weld? When is it most useful?

 

[bugsymike]

The odd thing I learnt about putting the new control arm on was that the ball joint wanted to be in exactly the right position before it'd drop in. I hammered and wrested for what seemed like ages and then it just dropped in easy as you like without me doing anything. I was WTF is that about LOL.

As i'm reading this back, its not sounding particularly relevant to what you've said, but hey its late...

No, of course not advocating hitting those in, normally correctly lined up and a little wriggle.

 

[AnthonyH]

Morning!

It's probably the last sunny day of the year, so I'm taking my yearly trip to Crosby beach to get burnt to a crisp lol.

I didn't hammer the ball joint that much lol

 

[bugsymike]

Morning!

It's probably the last sunny day of the year, so I'm taking my yearly trip to Crosby beach to get burnt to a crisp lol.

I didn't hammer the ball joint that much lol

Unusual for down here we have the rain and bad weather that you guys get normally.

 

[AnthonyH]

Unusual for down here we have the rain and bad weather that you guys get normally.

LOL, haven't checked the weather down there, apparently the south west is about 1 degree warmer on average than the north.

I'll need a hat, I'm not keen on cooking the egg lol