General TwinAir Thread (including MPG)

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General TwinAir Thread (including MPG)

Plus there is a better choice of sporty tyres for the 16" rims.


Ok i showed dealer my car and told him how much overall for a new twinair taking into account my old car! Dealer will tell me tomorrow and in meantime i will testdrive the twinair and tell you guys my thoughts of it. Should be interesting comparing the 1.4 with the twinair.
 
So, i made a mistake i have to pay 99 euros: 110 g/km * 0,9 = 99 :)

Normally the emissons are lower on the S/S. IIRC there was a difference of 6grms/km i.e. 119 verus 113 but this may have dropped on the 'newer' models.

Just had a chance to double check the emission figures.
119grs/km for the 1.2 without S/S
113grs/km for the 1.2 with S/S

TBH I am surprised that Greece are being supplied with 1.2s without S/S.
But if can you 'get away' with 110grs/km on your licence registration the money is better in your pocket !
 
Just had a chance to double check the emission figures.
119grs/km for the 1.2 without S/S
113grs/km for the 1.2 with S/S

TBH I am surprised that Greece are being supplied with 1.2s without S/S.
But if can you 'get away' with 110grs/km on your licence registration the money is better in your pocket !

Here's something interesting - the 1.2 Euro 4 Panda is 119grs/km (just like the 1.2 500 without S/S), but the 1.2 Euro 5 Panda (which does not have S/S) is also only 113grs/km :confused::confused::confused:.

So on the Panda FIAT got the same 6grs/km CO2 reduction without fitting S/S, just by modifying the engine to meet Euro5 limits. Is this more smoke & mirrors on FIAT's part to make the 500's S/S benefits look greater than they really are???
 
Here's something interesting - the 1.2 Euro 4 Panda is 119grs/km (just like the 1.2 500 without S/S), but the 1.2 Euro 5 Panda (which does not have S/S) is also only 113grs/km :confused::confused::confused:.

So on the Panda FIAT got the same 6grs/km CO2 reduction without fitting S/S, just by modifying the engine to meet Euro5 limits. Is this more smoke & mirrors on FIAT's part to make the 500's S/S benefits look greater than they really are???

I can only think that tyres could be making a slight difference and of course gearing.
 
I can only think that tyres could be making a slight difference and of course gearing.

AFAIK the only change to the Panda in going from 119g/km to 113g/km was the engine (E4 to E5).

When FIAT standardised S/S for the 2010 model year, the 1.2 also went from Euro4 to Euro5 - I'm wondering if some (perhaps most) of the improvement in the economy of the later models is down to the engine mods rather than the S/S fitment.
 
AFAIK the only change to the Panda in going from 119g/km to 113g/km was the engine (E4 to E5).

When FIAT standardised S/S for the 2010 model year, the 1.2 also went from Euro4 to Euro5 - I'm wondering if some (perhaps most) of the improvement in the economy of the later models is down to the engine mods rather than the S/S fitment.
I thought the 1.2 500 is Euro 5 all the way?
 
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I'm sure I've had this discussion before, but not according to the websites I've visited, like this one:

http://www.nextgreencar.com/view-car/4976/FIAT-500-Petrol-Manual-5-speed

Is there anything in the documentation that came with your car to show which engine is fitted?

From your link it seems that the 500 meets all the emissions standards of a Euro 5 engine?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards#Emission_standards_for_passenger_cars

http://www.autoebid.com/autoenews/newsAEBSingle.asp?artID=485

Fiat presser also says Euro 5 too

http://www.eurocarblog.com/post/502/fiat-500-press-kit
 
From your link it seems that the 500 meets all the emissions standards of a Euro 5 engine?

We seem to have found different websites saying different things! Nothing inherently unusual there ;).

I'd like to try to get to the bottom of it if I can. The nextgreencar website makes a clear differentiation between 1.2 models produced before and after 2010 & shows pre-2010 cars as Euro4 and the later vehicles Euro5. The detailed emissions data is significantly different as well - if the site is to be believed, then FIAT have clearly made more changes to the engine with the 2010 model year than just fitting S/S across the range.

You're quite right in pointing out that the numbers on the link I posted would seem to put the pre-2010 cars into Euro5, so I'm trying to understand why that site is showing them as Euro4. Looking at that wikilink you posted, Euro5 also brought in some new limits for substances not previously tested (like Non-methane hydrocarbons) - perhaps that has something to do with it?

Have a look at all the 1.2 pages on nextgreencar & see if you can make any sense of it. It's getting late for my brain to work at maximum efficiency; I'll have another trawl of the 'net tomorrow:) & see if I can dig a bit deeper into what's going on.
 
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...I'll have another trawl of the 'net tomorrow:) & see if I can dig a bit deeper into what's going on.

Wow, it's been a fascinating bit of homework.

I've found this article, which neatly brings together my posts, Maxi's posts, nextgreencar.com and the press launch articles and appears to solve the mystery:

http://autoinsight.blogosfere.it/2007/07/nuova-fiat-500-una-euro-5-omologata-euro-4-ecco-perche.html

It's written in Italian; someone with better knowledge of the language than I might be able to extract more of the nuances from it, but online translation offers the following*:

A po' reigns; of confusion between the motorists. They ask to me: but Fiat, with the 500 (all the post they regard that it), than strategy has adopted here with regard to the polluting emissions? Then, I try to make a po' d' order. The Cinquino respects the norms antipollution Euro 5. It wants to say that it is ahead in the time. Thus they have made other Houses all' vanguard, like l' Audios with some models. However, the 500 come accredited like Euro 4. Sul booklet you will find written Euro 4. The reason is simple: the norms Euro 5 still have not entered in vigor. To this point, it would be pretty if Fiat - once arrived the law dell' Euro 5 - it made pressure on the Department of the terrestrial transports (l' former Motorization, in order to mean to us) so that the passage concurred, on the papers of circulation of the 500, from Euro 4 to Euro 5. It would be enough brand adhesive to apply on the booklet. Goodness knows Fiat that thinks some. That dicitura 5 Euros a day could serve in order to pay a stamp less beloved, for circular in days of block of the traffic, in order to maintain a value trades them high.

*This isn't the clearest translation I found, but it is the funniest :).

The way I'm interpreting this, is that FIAT designed the 500 from the outset to exceed Euro5 emission limits, but only certified the cars to Euro4 standard at launch. All the cars were re-certified to Euro5 for the 2010 model year. So, pre-2010 cars have CO, HC & NOx emissions which meet Euro5 standards, but only have Euro4 certification.

This might have implications in the future for owners & purchasers of secondhand cars if Euro5 certification (as opposed to compliance with Euro5 limits) is needed in order to comply with local legislation or secure a fiscal advantage.

nextgreencar.com gives different CO, HC & NOx numbers for pre and post 2010 500s (models with & without S/S are listed separately in both categories). This may be because some small change was needed to get the Euro5 stamp, or it may just be a quirk of the recertification process.

The emissions numbers on my V5C correspond exactly to those given on nextgreencar.com for a 2010 S/S 1.2, which does give some credence to that website.
 
Just had a chance to double check the emission figures.
119grs/km for the 1.2 without S/S
113grs/km for the 1.2 with S/S

TBH I am surprised that Greece are being supplied with 1.2s without S/S.
But if can you 'get away' with 110grs/km on your licence registration the money is better in your pocket !
This is exactly what i wanted to explain. There are some standard emissions figures that are given by the manufacturer in order to calculate the road tax. In reality things may be different but the tax is calculated by taking the face value of these figures.
 
Here’s a translation of that article on the 500 and Euro4/5 - remembering that this article was written in July 2007

The New Fiat 500 - a Euro 5 homologated as a Euro 4 - here’s why.

A little confusion reigns among motorists. They ask me: but Fiat, with the 500 (here are all the posts regarding it), what strategy have they adopted with regard to polluting emissions?

Right, I’ll try to create a little order. The little Five respects the antipollution order Euro 5. I’d like to say that it’s ahead of the times. As have done other makers in the forefront, like Audi with several models. However, the 500 has been homologated as Euro 4. On the log book you’ll find written Euro 4. The reason is simple: the Euro 5 rules have not yet been enacted.

At this point, it would be pretty if Fiat - once the Euro 5 law has arrived - could put pressure on the Department of Land Transport (ex Motor Transport to make it clear) to allow the conversion, on the registration document of the 500s, from Euro 4 to Euro 5. A stick-on form to apply to the log book would do. Who knows if Fiat are thinking of this.

That Euro 5 wording could one day serve to pay reduced tax, to circulate on those days when traffic is banned (ie when a city bans more heavily polluting traffic because of pollution levels - babbo_umbro), to maintain a higher commercial value.

That's it.
 
Here’s a translation of that article on the 500 and Euro4/5 - remembering that this article was written in July 2007

The New Fiat 500 - a Euro 5 homologated as a Euro 4 - here’s why.

A little confusion reigns among motorists. They ask me: but Fiat, with the 500 (here are all the posts regarding it), what strategy have they adopted with regard to polluting emissions?

Right, I’ll try to create a little order. The little Five respects the antipollution order Euro 5. I’d like to say that it’s ahead of the times. As have done other makers in the forefront, like Audi with several models. However, the 500 has been homologated as Euro 4. On the log book you’ll find written Euro 4. The reason is simple: the Euro 5 rules have not yet been enacted.

At this point, it would be pretty if Fiat - once the Euro 5 law has arrived - could put pressure on the Department of Land Transport (ex Motor Transport to make it clear) to allow the conversion, on the registration document of the 500s, from Euro 4 to Euro 5. A stick-on form to apply to the log book would do. Who knows if Fiat are thinking of this.

That Euro 5 wording could one day serve to pay reduced tax, to circulate on those days when traffic is banned (ie when a city bans more heavily polluting traffic because of pollution levels - babbo_umbro), to maintain a higher commercial value.

That's it.

Thanks :)

So myself and jrkiching are both right :) jrkitching is more right hough as officially the 500 is euro 4 in some guises.
 
Here’s a translation of that article on the 500 and Euro4/5 - remembering that this article was written in July 2007

Many thanks for translating this. Taking account of all the evidence we have to date, it does indeed appear that cars produced before the 2010 model year are homologated as Euro4, despite the fact that they actually meet the Euro5 emission requirements. :bang::bang::bang:
 
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So myself and jrkiching are both right :) jrkitching is more right hough as officially the 500 is euro 4 in some guises.

Both of us, as well as all the different apparently conflicting articles, are right! And without your post I'd never have got to this conclusion & discovered the real truth - so thanks (y).

As someone else said recently, this forum can accomplish great things when its members work cooperatively together :):).
 
I'm a bit late to the party but only getting a chance to post these. JR had done this for me on the 1.4 (Click here)

Unsure if the reference sites are correct for the Panda: 'pre Sep 2010' shows that it gives 133 grs/km.

I have noticed that with some other car manufacturers e.g. BMW in lowering their Co2 their other emission figures got worse. I may be interpretting this incorrectly but is the 1.2 S/S showing (aside from the Co2) showing 'worse' emission figures that the standard Euro 5 1.2 (look at the end) ?

EDIT: my apologies on the URLs - they worked 'yesterday' but you can see where they came from...

500 M5 Euro 4 119 grs/km
http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx?vid=28638
500 M5 Euro 5 119 grs/km
http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx?vid=28639
500 1.2 Start and Stop, M5 113 Euro 5
http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx?vid=28643
Panda 1.2 Euro 4 133grs/km
http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx?vid=21826
Panda 1.2 Euro 4 133grs/km 14 Jan 2004- 30 sep 2010
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/fiat/panda/hatchback-2004/26948/
Panda 1.2 Dynamic Eco Euro 4 119grs/km
http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx?vid=28694
Panda 1.2 (69bhp) Mylife Euro 5 113grs/km
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/facts-and-figures/fiat/panda/hatchback-2004/51291/

The detail...

1.2 Start and Stop, M5 113 Euro 5
http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx?vid=28643
Noise Level [dB(A), moving]73.5CO Emissions
[g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6]351.0HC Emissions
[g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6]42.0NOx Emissions
[g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6]32.0HC+NOx Emissions
[g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6]N/AEmissions Particles

M5 119 Euro 5
http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx?vid=28639
Noise Level [dB(A), moving]73.5CO Emissions
[g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6]277.5HC Emissions
[g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6]40.3NOx Emissions
[g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6]14.4HC+NOx Emissions
[g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6]N/AEmissions Particles [g/km or mg/km under Euro 5/6]N/AEuro Standard5
 
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Many thanks for translating this. Taking account of all the evidence we have to date, it does indeed appear that cars produced before the 2010 model year are homologated as Euro4, despite the fact that they actually meet the Euro5 emission requirements. :bang::bang::bang:


Good old eurocracy!
Good at imposing 'environmental laws',
bad at managing the finances! = )
 
I may be interpretting this incorrectly but is the 1.2 S/S showing (aside from the Co2) showing 'worse' emission figures that the standard Euro 5 1.2?

Actually that makes sense. I'd expect an engine that's being stopped & restarted to produce higher HC & NOx emissions than one that's running continuously.
 
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