Think bike and bikers think

[HighTide]

What a further coincidence:-

I was on my mountain bike (so a push bike!)2-3 weeks ago.

I do triathlon training and was cycling back from my beach run and swimming workouts.

It was a sunny day; and about 3pm. Days were longer then; I had yellow gloves on; I also had my cycle lights on as an safety device; even though it was not near dusk.

I cycled back through the Lymington one way system. I was on a pushbike doing 18-22mph; so this "speed thing" that most non 2 wheeled road users like to use to put bikers "down" simply does not apply.

A white van pulled out; right in front of me (my right of way). He/she did not see me, or think to look.

I hit my brakes (powerful disc brakes) and went down inches from the side of the van (but no physical contact with the van).

What do you think the van driver did? He/she just drove off.

I have just had my arm in a splint for pulled/sprained damaged ligaments.

Sadly whilst a lot of car/van drivers maybe reasonable. This is what the reality is for cyclists and motorcyclists on a daily basis in the UK. If you only drive cars you maybe unaware of this completely.

It was a white van that took me off my motorbike in 2003. And again this happened to be a white van that pulled out infront of me the other week.

I am sure that the vast majority of these bad drivers at fault are people who *only* drive cars/vans; and do not have the mindset to consider all road users. I am sure that is what it is.

Whilst the "Think Bike" campaign is cleverly aimed at all; it really I believe will have the greatest success amongst the "car/van" driver only people.

Most drivers in the UK are reasonable. But get on your bike to see what the reality can be like for cyclists and bikers, with some car and van drivers.

Some car/van drivers simply do not look out for anything other than cars/vans/trucks. That is what it is.


Car/van drivers aware. Think van! ;-)

Seasonal Greetings

 

[HighTide]

I'm not a biker myself but I seem to think although a lot of these bikes accelerate VERY fast they can't seem to stop quickly.

.

Yes some can ride quickly and have large power. Only two of my motorbikes has been above 600cc. My other bikes have been aimed at economy or off road use and have been 125cc, and 200 & 250cc. The vast majority of bikers do not have fast sports bikes.

I also have a 3 litre V6 24 valve car that is very fast. I have never had an accident in that, and I never had an accident in my 602cc Citroen 2CV, or my 999cc Fiat Uno etc etc.

The amount of power that one has is not necessarily related to the propensity to have an accident. I would like to say not at all; but memories of the 1980'-1990's and Porsches driven by commuters wrapping themselves around trees may have tainted that view slightly.

 

[Geddes]

I am sure that the vast majority of these bad drivers at fault are people who *only* drive cars/vans; and do not have the mindset to consider all road users. I am sure that is what it is.

I was reading a thing from the CTC the other day which said 94% of CTC members have a driving licence and only 44% of AA members have ridden a bike.

 

[StevenRB45]

I was reading a thing from the CTC the other day which said 94% of CTC members have a driving licence and only 44% of AA members have ridden a bike.

What like ever?...appears AA members have deprived childhoods. If anything that just demonstrates out of the car and the bike which one is mass transport.

 

[Geddes]

What like ever?...appears AA members have deprived childhoods. If anything that just demonstrates out of the car and the bike which one is mass transport.

<goes to read article again>

80% of cyclists and 94% of adult CTC members hold a valid driving licence, whereas 18% of AA members cycle.

Dunno where I got 44% from...
But basically nobody driving a car has a clue about bikes

 

[AndyRKett]

I also have a 3 litre V6 24 valve car that is very fast. I have never had an accident in that, and I never had an accident in my 602cc Citroen 2CV, or my 999cc Fiat Uno etc etc.

The amount of power that one has is not necessarily related to the propensity to have an accident. I would like to say not at all; but memories of the 1980'-1990's and Porsches driven by commuters wrapping themselves around trees may have tainted that view slightly.

There is a big difference between cars and bikes and that's the bit that's in contact with the road. You 3litre V6 probably has 4 nice big fat tyres on each corner with good suspension designed to push those wheels into the road and manage getting the the power down and getting round corners.

Bikes have two tyres which are curved in design to manage leaning into corners, this affects the size of the contact patch, the front is narrower as is only needed for steering, power is handled by the big fat tyre on the back, and sports bikes tend to have minimal tread pattern making them more slippery in the wet, te bike is already unstable, and the low weight means that the tyres work is made harder when the front lifts on acceleration or the rear lifts on heavy breaking.

Cars in general are much more stable and sturdy a bike might be able to make a nice quick controlled stop on a track but when panic sets in because the bike is accelerating hard and someone has just pulled out, all the above starts to act against you throw in road conditions and no weights and you're very quickly in trouble.

Your big far v6 digs the two big front tyres into the tarmack and the two rear tyres manage stability, while your seatbelt keeps you Safely in your seat

Really you can't compare the power of a bike with the power of a car.

As for 80s Porsches, they didn't do corners very well because the weight of the engine stuck out behind the back axel destabilised the car on corners especially when a bit over exuberant. Wasn't really anything to do with the power as most modern hot hatches have more horses than those 80s porkers, the main advantage was keeping the number of big city bankers in check

 

[HighTide]

Re: Think bike and bikers think-Think Van & car drivers think

There is a big difference between cars and bikes and that's the bit that's in contact with the road. You 3litre V6 probably has 4 nice big fat tyres on each corner with good suspension designed to push those wheels into the road and manage getting the the power down and getting round corners.

Bikes have two tyres which are curved in design to manage leaning into corners, this affects the size of the contact patch, the front is narrower as is only needed for steering, power is handled by the big fat tyre on the back, and sports bikes tend to have minimal tread pattern making them more slippery in the wet, te bike is already unstable, and the low weight means that the tyres work is made harder when the front lifts on acceleration or the rear lifts on heavy breaking.

Cars in general are much more stable and sturdy a bike might be able to make a nice quick controlled stop on a track but when panic sets in because the bike is accelerating hard and someone has just pulled out, all the above starts to act against you throw in road conditions and no weights and you're very quickly in trouble.

Your big far v6 digs the two big front tyres into the tarmack and the two rear tyres manage stability, while your seatbelt keeps you Safely in your seat

Really you can't compare the power of a bike with the power of a car.

As for 80s Porsches, they didn't do corners very well because the weight of the engine stuck out behind the back axel destabilised the car on corners especially when a bit over exuberant. Wasn't really anything to do with the power as most modern hot hatches have more horses than those 80s porkers, the main advantage was keeping the number of big city bankers in check

Reply:-


The point I was and am making is that it is down to the driver or riding style.

There is this perception by some that having powerful bikes is dangerous. It is not what you have got, it is what you do with it ;-) ; and it is just the same with cars; or whatever comparison you may care to draw up.

The Porsche analogy was used; because that was an example of how power was a factor in accidents. Car accidents incidentally not bike accidents!

In some ways you can argue that a powerful car or bike is safer. Why? Because you know you have the power to overtake quickly; then there is less stress hanging back for an overtake awaiting "the moment"; and you have a bigger easier safer margin for error.

Twelve years I have been riding motorbikes (I started late). (Small and larger engined). I have never come off a motorbike (quite honestly) in all the time I have been riding, except the time that I was taken out by a van that was jumping a cross roads that failed to see me. That was not my fault.

Of course many "car only drivers"; when I started riding said that I would "fall off" taking a bend too tight , or whatever, without question! I have not.
So I am used to prejudice against bike riders from some people.

I am no Guy Martin. But I am sure many of you know that he can show you what can be done with a bike.

I am a pilot too. Many pilots also ride motorbikes incidentally. Again I come across this theme from non pilots. Flying is dangerous....you can't do that etc etc. Well I have never had an aviation crash/accident in my life either.

As for rear engined cars bit of your post; having use of a Hillman Imp in the nineties, and also experiencing the pitfalls of Volkswagen Beetle ownership of De Wall Dr in Capetown; I am aware of their twitching characteristics.

Rear wheel suspension architecture on the original Beetles makes them tuck under; and you get rear wheel steering; depending on whether you are on/off the throttle with the weightshift. It really is "interesting". That rear wheel steering then gets magnified with your polar moments; and you have a twitchy oscillating car! You just have to keep it under control incase it magnifies itself.

I never had an accident in a Beetle; but one can see why/how they happen.

The "bike science" you talk about happens on cars too. Lift off oversteer, lift off understeer as well in the case of the Citroen DS and so on. As for light weight cars, I once had a Citroen Mehari. (look it up if you don't know what it is) I could get the tail end of that sliding around due to the light weight; where as the 2CV on which it was based was heavier and stable in the same bends.

Bikes go "light" at high speed; as do cars.

Of course one can compare the power of car to the power of a bike.
More power on either a bike or car, means potentially more likelyhood to wheel spin, break traction or push you into a corner etc...it is all the same science.

Bikes or planes;I feel sometimes with some people I sometimes think and know it is jealously; or fear of an unknown discipline to them; as to why they are against them. Not that I am saying you are like that. I do not know. But I hear these same points from such people.


Yes I would drive my 3 litre V6 car round a corner quicker than on a bike; especially in the wet. Because it can go faster.

However the point is still that "power" is not a dangerous thing in itself; it is the way people ride or drive that can be dangerous.

I mentioned my powerful car together alongside my small engine cars in an attempt to show that; in what I thought was an easy to understand way. That is having a big engine/more power does not make one more likely to have an accident.

Or alternatively....I have had big engined bikes, and small engined bikes for 12 years. I have never fallen off of my own accord on any of them ;-)

Think Van & Van drivers think ;-)

 

[EvoStevo]

Re: Think bike and bikers think-Think Van & car drivers think

Cars come in multiple choices of colour, from red, yellow, green, orange, white to black.
Cars have 2 headlights and often have additional lights on them.

It seems to me that bikers (including cyclists) only come in black & camo (see the OP pic) and will generally be poorly illuminated.

No wonder they are hard to see against the sun and when they are driving at excessive speed.

 

[The Beard]

I think you're being a little economical with the actualite (as some politician once said). Most bikers (myself included) ride motorcycles with the headlights on permanently. Although personally I tend to turn it on in daylight if I'm about to overtake or otherwise ride close to another vehicle or pedestrian as a change in the appearance of a vehicle is more likely to attract a driver's attention than one that's constant.

My crash helmet is silver and I usually wear a blue and black Spidi Cordura jacket with black Dianese Cordura pants. Failing that a blue (al a Manchester City) leather jacket. My bike has a white fairing. Anything below the level of the headlight is pretty irrelevant as a driver won't see it.

Ducatis tend to be red, yellow or white. Yamaha R1s and R6s are variously, red, yellow, blue or white.

6 weeks ago a young 17 year old lad was on his way home from work on his Yamaha 125 in the dark along the very well lit A57 near Manchester. Two witnesses said that he had his headlight on and was riding at, or very close to the speed limit. He was an apprentice motorcycle mechanic and had painted it white himself after re-building the frame and putting the brakes from a more powerful bike on it. A driver turned right across his path into a side road sending him cartwheeling over the car's roof and leaving him lying in the road 15 yards away with spinal injuries. Thankfully his injuries aren't likelly to be permanent due to the prompt action of a bystander, namely Mrs. Beard.

Effectively, the fault for incidents like this and in fact most collisions where a bike is hit by a car is almost always the fault of the car driver.

However, fault and responsibility are not necessarily the same thing. What do I mean? Well, although I'm tempting fate a little here, I've had two incidents on a motorbike, both of them the kind of thing that had I had a video camera (they weren't actually invented then) would have made great comedy moments in the hands of Harry Hill, if the lad I mentioned above had thought about the possibility of some stupid cow in a Ka turning across his path he might have lost 5 mph, dropped it a gear and covered the brake lever. That might, at best, have avoided the crash altogether or, at worst, lessened the impact. The same goes for car drivers as well.

I might sound like some old git waffling on here (quite probably) but I've had one fault accident in 40 years of driving. Those of a generous disposition might like to note that I'm coming to the end of my Jubilee year of driving so gifts and nominations for the Queen's Birthday Honours List should be forwarded to me c/o The Times in London. My only "fault accident" occurred in 1979 on the M6 at Keele while returning from the Knebworth Festival after seeing Led Zeppelin. My "non-faults" have included two rear enders at walking pace approaching roundabouts, and, ironically, one where a motorcycle pulled out of a side road. Could I have avoided them? Erm, well, a driving instructor I knew suggested that as in one of the bumps I looked in my mirror and saw the lady talking to her friend next to her rather than the back of my car, I could have sounded the horn which might have avoided the bump. The one with the motorcycle (well it was a Yamaha Town Mate 50 actually) was a little different in as much as it happened on a road in Stockport with black cabs parked on the left hand side outside a garage. I actually did see the danger, moved out to the right, slowed down and dropped it to 3rd gear. Happy that there were no gaps big enough for a taxi to emerge from and that I could see that the cabs were all driverless....I relaxed only for the Yamaha to pull out at 90 degrees to my path and straight into the front of the Uno.

Despite his Wellington boot coming off he said he wasn't injured and, possibly because I whipped out my Nikon and took pictures before the debris could be removed I thought it would be a case of the insurance companies dealing with it. That night I rang the bootless man and asked how he was. He told me he'd broken his ankle. I suggested that he should contact the Police which he told me he had already done. THANKS PAL!! I rang the station he'd contacted and got a Sergeant who sounded as if he'd caught me just getting on board a plane to go and join Ronnie Biggs in Rio.

I know the crashes I've had, but what I don't know is how many I've avoided by careful observation, intelligent road positioning, anticipation of road and traffic and good vehicle handling. But sometimes it doesn't matter what you do to stay safe, occasionally your luck just runs out

http://worldcarslist.com/images/yamaha/yamaha-townmate/yamaha-townmate-02.jpg

The offending machine.

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/Gallery A/Yamaha FJ1200 94.jpg

My magnificent beast

 

[EvoStevo]

I stopped reading when you said you too wore black & blue.

I'm not sure what the picture of the moped is for but the other bike only has a small section of white, and not all bikes are like that - many are all black, just like the majority of biker gear.

Which is what my point is, perhaps if they want to be seen better then they ought to wear brighter gear and have brighter bikes.

Some do, many dont.
Unfortunately David was in the dont group.

 

[Andy Monty]

In the same context you could argue a driver of a blue car should fit day glow strips in sunny weather

a green landrover driver in the country side should do the same..

a silver car driver needs to paint is stripey to stand out in the fog....


No amount of high vis / reflective/ strobe lights will stop a dopey idiot hitting you


The Mrs got a load of abuse from a car driver last Saturday when he forced her into the curb whilst she was on a cycle path with decent lights and a high vis long sleeve jacket ......... yet he still pulled across her path trying to get into the filter left lane...

Apparently she shouldn't fing have been there.....

"what on a cycle path for cycles since when did you f##king car become one" was her reply.....

he gave her some more lip then she end ended up offering the driver out of his car at which point he wound the window up and looked straight ahead



people hit these regularly how visible do you have to be?

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

I can't see any high vis on the back of that one :devil:

 

[Andy Monty]

I can't see any high vis on the back of that one :devil:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-20442822

 

[AndyRKett]

It's all very well and good bikers blaming drivers or drivers blaming bikers, essentially when you're laying in the hospital bed with a broken spine paralysed from the waste down or worse laying on the morticians slab playing the blame game isn't really going to help you. This is why bikers need to start taking responsibility for there actions, when there is serious risk for bikers simply passing a junction with Mr Magoo emerging, then speeding, weaving through traffic or overtaking with oncoming traffic, all put bikers in further risk of encountering not only more idiots who pay little attention but they also get the backs up of those who do pay attention. People who will deliberately move across change lanes or brake test them all without warning putting them in further danger. There is an attitude amoungst bikers that there actions are all acceptable because an insurance man in a office said it was the car drivers fault, but the the truth is blame doesn't fix two broken legs and help avoid 4 years of intensive physiotherapy.

The other day I heard something first hand from those involved with the accident that I posted at the beginning of this thread, and that is that the car driver would have walked away Scott free had he not stated he'd not seen the bike and admitted fault, the judge in the case more or less implied the same during the case because the biker was riding so dangerously. Sadly because he had admitted fault and pleaded guilty, the judges hands were tied.

Car drivers always need to be better at what they do and should of course be more careful when it comes to bikers, but bikers need to take that chip off their shoulder a start riding more safely and preempting those idiots who are out to kill them.

Finally I wish I'd had a pound for every year a biker had claimed they had been riding bikes without ever having an accident, because having worked in orthopaedics and a wife who works in A&E between us would could probably show you a dead or seriously injured person for every one of those years.
Just because today you've never had an accident doesn't somehow make you immune to other idiots and tomorrow might not be your day.

That's the point of this thread, bikers have just as much responsibility as drivers do.

 

[dave]

people hit these regularly how visible do you have to be?

how regular daily, weekly, mothly?
19,438 cyclists were injured in 2013 around 3000 of them seriously killed or injured, In 2010, 403 motorcyclists were killed on the road, 4,780 were seriously injured and around 13,500 slightly injured in reported road accidents. now that is what would be called regularly!

 

[Andy Monty]

how regular daily, weekly, mothly?
19,438 cyclists were injured in 2013 around 3000 of them seriously killed or injured, In 2010, 403 motorcyclists were killed on the road, 4,780 were seriously injured and around 13,500 slightly injured in reported road accidents. now that is what would be called regularly!

yeh thats pretty serious


good old statistics there was 109 cyclists killed in 2013


and in cars 785 were killed in the same period



46% of motoring fatalitys were in cars with "only" 6% been cyclists and foot pedestrians accounting for 23%


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/324580/rrcgb-main-results-2013.pdf



Cycling Accidents>

Around 75% of fatal or serious cyclist accidents occur in urban areas2
Around half of cyclist fatalities occur on rural roads
75% happen at, or near, a road junction
80% occur in daylight
80% of cyclist casualties are male
Almost one quarter of the cyclists killed or injured are children
Around three quarters of cyclists killed have major head injuries.

 

[dave]

you forgot to include how many cars are on the road compared to how many cycles and how many of them killed in cars were is the same accident

 

[The Beard]

I stopped reading when you said you too wore black & blue.

I'm not sure what the picture of the moped is for but the other bike only has a small section of white, and not all bikes are like that - many are all black, just like the majority of biker gear.

Which is what my point is, perhaps if they want to be seen better then they ought to wear brighter gear and have brighter bikes.

Some do, many dont.
Unfortunately David was in the dont group.

Did you read the bit about the colour of my leather jacket being similar to MCFC's shirts, ie Laser Blue which is nice and bright? The white part is the important bit being roughly at eye height for a car driver. The blue part of the fairing is below that and similar to the height of radiator grille of a small van or people carrier, any prizes for guessing what colour they tend to be? Yup, black or grey. Perhaps bikers who ride machines without any fairings shouldn't feel aggrieved if they get hit by a car; maybe cars painted dark colours such as matt black or matt grey should be banned. Pedestrians to wear flashing yellow lights on their clothes when they walk? You could go on forever.

The point of the little Yamaha, had you bothered to read far enough, was that that was what hit my old Uno when the rider pulled out from between two parked taxis and was used in my post to show that sometimes no matter how careful you are; sometimes s**t happens. It was also to show that I'm not saying that motorcyclists are always the victims, but where another vehicle is involved, it's mainly the other driver who is at fault and the biker who is the victim.

You will also notice, had you bothered to read far enough, that I too said that bikers should take responsibility for their own safety. When I ride my bike, most enthusiastically driven cars with any pretensions to performance would show me a clean pair of heels on a National Speed Limit road, although I can usually catch them and overtake where they can't due to narrow width and acceleration, but in a built up area my brain constantly works, looking at side roads, driver behaviour, parked vehicles, pedestrians, speed and distance of other vehicles, types of pedestrians, whether pedestrian crossings are about to change and the same with ATS.

Speaking to a BTP (British Transport Police) biker recently and discussing driver behaviour he told me of a recent case where he and another Cop were en-route to an urgent job riding on blue lights and sirens on the M60. The were in lane 3 and travelling at about 130mph when an Audi joined the motorway and moved from the sliproad to lane 3 in one movement, pulling in front of them. How visible does a motorcycle have to be if 300 kgs of white Yamaha FJR1300 with twin flashing headlights, blue front strobe lights and a raised rear blue strobe and wailing sirens aren't sufficient for a driver?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TSC_Yamaha_FJR_1300_-_Flickr_-_Highway_Patrol_Images_(4).jpg

 

[scout]

What it boils down too is that most car drivers go into auto mode behind the wheel of a car, bikers can't afford to do that as they tend to end up dead if they do. How many times do we hear, "it came out of nowhere" & "I didn't see it" that's because the driver is listening to music, talking on the phone, thinking about dinner, worried about the meeting their heading for, the list is endless and we are all guilty of it, its just we get lucky. Unfortunately the selfish attitude I now see on a regular basis will only compound the problem (bad positioning at junctions, no consideration of others etc) because this causes frustration and bad judgement in others.

 

[varesecrazy]

They were in lane 3 and travelling at about 130mph when an Audi joined the motorway and moved from the sliproad to lane 3 in one movement, pulling in front of them. How visible does a motorcycle have to be if 300 kgs of white Yamaha FJR1300 with twin flashing headlights, blue front strobe lights and a raised rear blue strobe and wailing sirens aren't sufficient for a driver?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:TSC_Yamaha_FJR_1300_-_Flickr_-_Highway_Patrol_Images_(4).jpg[/QUOTE]

Audi

TBH on most sliproads.your angle of approach limits your visibility enough that lane 3 is probaly "blind",
not normally an issue if you're in a "conventional car" , and can see over your shoulder,

intrusive pillars are a problem in certain cars, as is the drivers inability to actually LOOK and Register what they've seen....., assuming they've bothered unfolding their mirrors

back in the 80's when all apprentices rode bikes to college

the only one with any money ( parents) to buy all the "flouro"kit and a brand new bike with "12 Volt" electrics = BRIGHT headlight
was the one who got knocked off.
Sorry -mate...":bang:

to SEE you , they first have to LOOK..,

still too difficult for some

Charlie