Do you guys think I got scammed by the dealer?

[SB1500]

Hey folks, although I’m sadly without a Fiat, I did recently have the need to put this together as I had a brake fluid change done at my Toyota dealer on Friday 24th. A check on Tuesday evening showed that there was no visible sign of bleeding done at the brake lines on any of the four wheels (shown at start of video). Some people suggested I bleed some fluid out and see how it compared with that in the reservoir, as I suspect they sucked and refilled that and called it a day. I thought if I was going to go that far, might as well just bleed it myself and find out: did they replace and bleed it or not?

I reckon they didn’t due to the darkness of what came out of the lines versus that from the reservoir. And also how noticeable it was after I did it today myself compared to how it looked after they allegedly did it.

I spoke to them last week. They’ve seen the photos and heard my concerns but they keep repeating “We know this technician. And we have no reason to doubt him. He said it’s done, so we very much believe it is done”. Despite the photos that’s what they’ve said on repeat. Currently waiting for Toyota UK and the franchise network owners to investigate… in the meantime I’m curious if you would agree.

Videos a bit long but last few minutes do show the comparison of what came out of the lines versus the initial sample from the reservoir.



(Thumbnail and title is to attract more views from random but also car repair people on YouTube on the whole)

 

[portland_bill]

I'm 13 minutes into the video, and screaming, "take the bl**dy wheels off". Faffing about under the car makes it more difficult, and increases risk. Get the wheel off, so you can be outside the vehicle, with more light, and better access.

The fluid inside the rubber cap could be indicative of recent bleeding, or might have been there since last time.
Normal procedure would be to slacken the nipple with a single-hex socket, just slightly, and nip up, to get the best grip and ensure the hex does not round off. Then attach the tube and use an open-end spanner, or leave a ring spanner hanging on when the tube is fitted.

The fluid out at 13 minutes looked ok. But you are closer. If the first fluid out looked old, you should have stopped there, and returned to the dealer, so they could bleed the other side and confirm old or new. If you've now done the lot, you have no evidence, so no claim will go anywhere.

I agree, if it had been recently bled, the nipple covers and nipples should show evidence of dampness, and of being wiped clean.

 

[SB1500]

I'm 13 minutes into the video, and screaming, "take the bl**dy wheels off". Faffing about under the car makes it more difficult, and increases risk. Get the wheel off, so you can be outside the vehicle, with more light, and better access.

The fluid inside the rubber cap could be indicative of recent bleeding, or might have been there since last time.
Normal procedure would be to slacken the nipple with a single-hex socket, just slightly, and nip up, to get the best grip and ensure the hex does not round off. Then attach the tube and use an open-end spanner, or leave a ring spanner hanging on when the tube is fitted.

The fluid out at 13 minutes looked ok. But you are closer. If the first fluid out looked old, you should have stopped there, and returned to the dealer, so they could bleed the other side and confirm old or new. If you've now done the lot, you have no evidence, so no claim will go anywhere.

I agree, if it had been recently bled, the nipple covers and nipples should show evidence of dampness, and of being wiped clean.

I appreciate the response!

The backs I kept the wheels on, but removed for the fronts as there was no easy access.

The back two had the fluid in the cap, the front two were dry inside (if I’m remembering right)

Hmm, true. Might have been a mistake to do all. But I do have the two samples - that flat container and the little kit container itself. I’m planning to take that down to them this week.

Most likely as you say, now that I’ve done it they could just stick to it. They totally ignored those initial photos taken on Tuesday showing the dry caps. They might ignore the two samples as well.

If you have time to watch the rest I appreciate any further comments.

Btw, I noticed upon watching it back. The front two.. when I loosened the valves, seemed to leak more from under the nipple valves. Under the nut itself. When I pumped the pedal, the bottom of the video shows its gushing out from there. Did I loosen it too much?

Rears were very tight. Fronts much easier to screw off. Size 11 ended up fitting well

 

[portland_bill]

The pic shows a typical bleed nipple. You'll see a tapered inner end, it is this that seals when tightened. It should just be 'nipped up', or it can seize in, or damage the inner taper, rendering the caliper scrap. Being tight to undo does not mean overtightened in the past, as they do tend to grow in, as do most taper fittings.

Yoou did appear to undo yours a lot. A small tweak is all that is necessary, or as you can see, the fluid will leak past the threads.

Good luck with your complaint, but arrivign with a couple of bottles of fluid sample can be argued that these could have come from anywhere. An edited video might be helpful, but they will not watch 13 minutes of faffing about. Keep calm, and ask nicely, you'll get better response. Choose a time to visit when service reception is busy, people waiting like to listen to conversations, and will incentivise a good response. Avoid first thing in the morning, as that is when everyone arrives, and the place is busiest. They'll ask you to wait, and leave you there for a long time. Mid afternoon might be better, as people are collecting their vehicles.

 

[SB1500]

View attachment 434297The pic shows a typical bleed nipple. You'll see a tapered inner end, it is this that seals when tightened. It should just be 'nipped up', or it can seize in, or damage the inner taper, rendering the caliper scrap. Being tight to undo does not mean overtightened in the past, as they do tend to grow in, as do most taper fittings.

Yoou did appear to undo yours a lot. A small tweak is all that is necessary, or as you can see, the fluid will leak past the threads.

Good luck with your complaint, but arrivign with a couple of bottles of fluid sample can be argued that these could have come from anywhere. An edited video might be helpful, but they will not watch 13 minutes of faffing about. Keep calm, and ask nicely, you'll get better response. Choose a time to visit when service reception is busy, people waiting like to listen to conversations, and will incentivise a good response. Avoid first thing in the morning, as that is when everyone arrives, and the place is busiest. They'll ask you to wait, and leave you there for a long time. Mid afternoon might be better, as people are collecting their vehicles.

Sorry, I initially read your reply as saying I need to make a tweak to mine as it leaked a lot. I will keep that in mind in the future. For a very first try I think it mostly went well. Possibly I should have bled more out of the tears rears with the longer lines. Although I read online around 500ml does a typical car? No official capacity online that I could find. I was most scared of the reservoir running dry to be honest or running through too much fluid and running out altogether

We always managed to not need to do it on the Panda and my cars since even when changing the brakes.

I’ll try and get down this week mid afternoon. I think I’ll go with the bottles first and keep it a mystery as to how I obtained them and allow them to believe it was another dealer / mechanics workshop…

What’s your view on the colour difference? One thing I am unsure on is just how yellow or dark the new Toyota stuff was. Maybe it’s slightly darker or lighter than the Comma stuff. Or are they all identical looking? And can one week inside the system darken it like that despite new fluid.

 

[SB1500]

Short update, although the service advisor lady and her boss (top service advisor of some kind) weren't very useful. The site manager now is going to meet me next week. Told him it's been changed since but I have the samples - he's very keen to get the samples tested and to make it right. He is actually, legitimately concerned, that if anybody on their sites are doing this to save a few £, that they are quite liable for potential brake failures so although he could have dismissed me having changed it, is still happy to invest some time in checking it.

I told him though, as I do get it replaced as per the Toyota guidance (Every 24 months / 25,000 miles) and it last being done early 2022, that perhaps the older fluid might not actually register any significant drop in quality compared to fresh stuff. Anybody know if that's likely?

Either way, quite happy with his seemingly authentic concern to get to the bottom of it and willingness to sort it out. Will post results next week.

 

[chris3234]

Personally I've allways found the 2 year recommended far too conservative on most cars but Allways better then leaving too long

 

[SB1500]

Personally I've allways found the 2 year recommended far too conservative on most cars but Allways better then leaving too long

Anybody I've mentioned it to so far looks at me as if to say "Never even heard of that job - so presumably, he's being OTT having it done that often!".

Sure enough, probably would be fine to "leave" but in 10+ years old, the brakes will probably stick and be well done from excess heat, pressure and whatnot. It's probably not likely I'll have the car that old, but if it's in my care I want to look after it.

 

[chris3234]

Anybody I've mentioned it to so far looks at me as if to say "Never even heard of that job - so presumably, he's being OTT having it done that often!".

Sure enough, probably would be fine to "leave" but in 10+ years old, the brakes will probably stick and be well done from excess heat, pressure and whatnot. It's probably not likely I'll have the car that old, but if it's in my care I want to look after ittrue most cars would be fine for probably 10 years if the resivour hasn't been left open for long periods or had a broken hose

Id even go as far as saying most cars probably go 5+ years without a fluid change unless ofc it's had a burst hose or new caliper ect requiring bleeding

 

[SB1500]

Id even go as far as saying most cars probably go 5+ years without a fluid change unless ofc it's had a burst hose or new caliper ect requiring bleeding

It was easier than I expected (hence why I was paying the dealer to do it).

£7 something for the kit.
£7 something for the fluid that meets the spec.

At £15 I reckon it’s justifiable to do it more regularly. Especially if like me, you sorta enjoy doing little DIY and maintenance jobs

 

[varesecrazy]

As you probably heard

The concern is the Fluid Absorbs Moisture over time, and driving down a mountain pass could get the fluid hot enough that the water expands, and you lose all brake efficiency,

To me 3 to 5 years seems about right.. But you are following Toyota guidance.. No issues there

Good to hear somebody further up the tree is taking an interest also.


I had awkward hassle with a Peugeot Dealer a while back... So can understand your frustrations..

 

[SB1500]

Just wanted to give you guys an update.

Having spoken to the site manager for these dealerships, he was actually quite helpful and empathetic for my genuine concern at the heart of this (the job not being done). He offered me credit for the value of the job to make things right. He asked for the two samples and is going to test them himself just so he can try and get some sort of 'proof' as it were so he can ascertain himself if corners are being cut.

I think that's a decent offering. I won't go back for servicing but for parts that will suffice. Lesson learnt on paying for jobs I can do myself, as I have the means and time, I should really just do it myself (saving money and the risk of this situation).

Overall it's a fine resolution and I appreciate it, as all your points above. Thanks again all.

 

[varesecrazy]

Good to hear you were listened to,

that's far from what often happens..

When our Panda was in Warranty, we would make to 40 minute trip to Swindon to a 'Massive chain' , (regular comment was, "they sell every car in town, Except the Ferrari's"..)

Our loan car was always a Clio..

Asking how things that didn't need doing.. Or were impossible.. were still on the itemised bill,
"oh - that's a standard form"

Made you wonder what percentage they actually did,

They were generally helpful and did change clutch packs for free,

but the oil filter failing 18 hours after a service
meant we went elsewhere...

 

[SB1500]

Good to hear you were listened to,

that's far from what often happens..

When our Panda was in Warranty, we would make to 40 minute trip to Swindon to a 'Massive chain' , (regular comment was, "they sell every car in town, Except the Ferrari's"..)

Our loan car was always a Clio..

Asking how things that didn't need doing.. Or were impossible.. were still on the itemised bill,
"oh - that's a standard form"

Made you wonder what percentage they actually did,

They were generally helpful and did change clutch packs for free,

but the oil filter failing 18 hours after a service
meant we went elsewhere...

I think as long as I just stick to parts and DIY I should be fine. Even if in the future I own a Fiat. Although if I have a 1.2 engine it’s robust enough to stick any quality oil.

Main reason I get dealer only for the Toyota is the fragile little BMW engine and it’s plastic guts that likely depend on some rare additive package that may or may not be in even other ‘good brand’ equivalent oils on the market. I’d go back to Castrol on a future Panda