General Struggling with the TA Engine in 4x4

[RS4]

I came from the last Panda 4x4 to the TA 4x4 and initially it was a revelation as it is much faster, much better on the Motorway etc.
However 13k miles in I'm getting still getting mid 30's mpg and it seems to struggle at low speeds where I seem to be perpetually in the wrong gear, finding dead spots, rough running, vibration. Its just been back to Fiat for the latest ECU software but that hasn't made a noticeable difference as yet.

Just wondered if anyone else was finding it difficult to live with, I'm considering trying to move to the Cross diesel in the hope it might be better drive day to day.
Still a big fan of the 4x4 mind.

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi,

my Punto TA has done very well,

averaged 50 mpg over it's 15K miles, biggish body like the panda,

I know Moultoneer gets better from his trekking,

what tyres are you using?, "proper" knobblies will ruin MPG, as will town / high speed running.

how many services..?? could do with at least 1 oil + filter at 13K , as it's just about fully run-in.

Charlie

 

[babbo_umbro]

I came from the last Panda 4x4 to the TA 4x4 and initially it was a revelation as it is much faster, much better on the Motorway etc.
However 13k miles in I'm getting still getting mid 30's mpg and it seems to struggle at low speeds where I seem to be perpetually in the wrong gear, finding dead spots, rough running, vibration. Its just been back to Fiat for the latest ECU software but that hasn't made a noticeable difference as yet.

Just wondered if anyone else was finding it difficult to live with, I'm considering trying to move to the Cross diesel in the hope it might be better drive day to day.
Still a big fan of the 4x4 mind.

I've done 18,000 miles in just over a year in my 4x4 TA. In that time I've had three or four occasions at very low speed when I've let the revs drop too far in too high a gear and the engine management seems to have got itself in a muddle - vibration, hiccupping, nearly stalling - but that was poor anticipation on my part. In general, the flat torque curve of the TA has been its greatest asset, with a slight tendency to vibrate below, say, 2,000 revs if really slogging up a long hill - reminiscent of a real Fiat 500, in fact. I get 37-38 mpg round Devon and 42 or so on our twice-yearly trips to Italy, including long stretches at 85-90 mph and with the air con on almost all the time. It romps up Alps when quite heavily loaded on the way back.

Overall, I'm positive though I'm not convinced that a non-turbo 4 cylinder with really good engine management couldn't do the same job, though not giving the same (artificial) low emissions. The six-speed box is a boon, which I'd really miss on any other version. My wife had a 2wd Panda Multijet a few years back and you really did have to row that along with the gear lever - much more so than the TA. Assuming you're not expecting it to pull like steam train - as would a bigger diesel - it sounds to me as though there's something not quite right with yours. I changed the oil on mine after 5-6,000 miles and again on its first anniversary, after about 15,000 miles, after which it felt noticeably smoother and more lively.

 

[RS4]

Thanks for the replies, my Panda is on the standard M&S tyres it came with and I did have an oil change at about 7k, thought it a bit cruel stretching it out beyond that.
Just been back to the dealer with it, they just flashed some new software on it. Might have to have another attempt with them.


Once you are on the open road its great, much better than the last version but its the slow speed , heavy traffic stuff that seems to be hard work.

 

[Moultoneer]

Thanks for the replies, my Panda is on the standard M&S tyres it came with and I did have an oil change at about 7k, thought it a bit cruel stretching it out beyond that.
Just been back to the dealer with it, they just flashed some new software on it. Might have to have another attempt with them.


Once you are on the open road its great, much better than the last version but its the slow speed , heavy traffic stuff that seems to be hard work.

I hope your TA gets sorted out. Today I drove across Swindon in rush-hour
traffic, but my only gripe with the car is that I'd like a lighter clutch

The stop-start traffic slightly dented the economy: 57mpg for the 120 mile
trip (mostly M5/M4 motorways at about 65MPH) IMO not bad for petrol



Chris

 

[4x4Panda]

We've had our T/A 4x416months /6500 miles: the T/A does take some getting used to. My views:-

Try and keep the revs above about 1700 at least; with 2000 even better.

Always run it on good quality super-unleaded (we generally use Shell). Just like our previous generation 4x4 it is sooo much happier on this stuff.

The ECU will do anything it can to prevent a stall - hence if you coast in 5th or 6th down to quite low rpm, the car will only slow down so far, before it applies its own throttle.

Bizarrely (??), ours will actually run smoother in ECO mode. I sometimes switch to this for slow town use, but switch out for pulling out at junctions unless it's just you on the road and timeliness is not an issue...

As ours does a lot of short local journeys; once a month, I take the car on a decent long run at motorway speeds.

In case you haven't tried it, the super juice might just be what your car craves??

Hope this is of interest

All the best

 

[JTD_Liam]

I don't have the 4x4, but I have used the same TwinAir 85 engine extensively in my Parents 500.

Your experiences sound very much like mine with our 500 TwinAir - even though the 500 and Panda are largely 'city' cars, the TwinAir actually feels more at home on the open road. This bit might be different because the 4x4 has 6 speeds rather than the 5 in our 500 and 'regular' Pandas, but it's one of those engines that doesn't have the grunt to pull away from crawling pace in 2nd gear, but also hates being put into 1st gear unless you've reached a complete standstill. Coming from a diesel which doesn't care, I always get flummoxed by this!

However, I do find the suggestion of putting the car in Eco mode a good one - ours has notably less of a lurching sensation when it's in Eco, which makes it a good option for round town and stop/start work. Once out on the open road or encountering hills, put it back in normal mode.

Failing that, the Multijet might also be an option, but it's bloody expensive in Cross trim, is noisier at high speed (partly due to being 5 and not 6 speed) and will need a good run once a fortnight at least otherwise it won't be happy.

 

[Aikidoamigo]

One thing that annoys me is the constant request from the dashboard to 'change up'

Is it me or does the request typically come fractions too early.... quite often if I follow the arrow the engine then sounds like it is struggling a little, whereas sticking to my own gut feeling it runs really nicely.

Invariably I end up changing when I feel it is right and therefore have to ignore the constantly blinking light... is there a way to switch that gear change recommendation off?

The idea on the better fuel sounds a good one but one that is likely to prove expensive; so far we have not tried ECO mode and we do get a little feeling of 'lurching' around (thought it was the premature gear changing) so I will certainly try that for a while.

Regarding Start Stop.... its my first experience in a car with this function and I do like it a lot, other than in heavy traffic when it drives me crazy, so I now tend to switch it off when crawling along.

 

[babbo_umbro]

Thanks for the replies, my Panda is on the standard M&S tyres it came with and I did have an oil change at about 7k, thought it a bit cruel stretching it out beyond that.
Just been back to the dealer with it, they just flashed some new software on it. Might have to have another attempt with them.


Once you are on the open road its great, much better than the last version but its the slow speed , heavy traffic stuff that seems to be hard work.

Do you pull away from a stop in first or second gear? I know first is a "crawler" but I just find second too high to get away without slipping the clutch more than I want to. I don't do much driving in heavy traffic - quite rare in Devon and Umbria - but haven't found it hard going - I can think of two-mile queues for the San Gottardo tunnel when the 4x4's behaved just fine. The clutch is on the heavy side for such a small, low-powered car, and you do need to make sure it's fully disengaged for smooth changes, especially from first to second. The engine also has a heavy flywheel, I think, presumably to smooth out the two-cylinder effect, just like the real 500 (again) and that sometimes compromises throttle response, such as when changing down quickly for a hairpin bend.

 

[TwinAir Newbie]

Hmm- some interesting comments there.

I'm not the main driver of either of the TAs that we have but have enough experience of both of them.

Overall the ECO button gets left off almost all the time.

They do ask you to change up at very low engine speeds and just from a safety point of view get ignored especially in town.

Fuel consumption on both cars isn't fantastic and the idea of trying premium fuel is food for thought- shame I tanked both of them up in the last couple of days!

I'll watch this thread with interest.

 

[Aikidoamigo]

I think premium fuel to bring a few more MPG would seem very unlikely to bring the increase needed to offset the additional costs.

Anyone fancy calculating how much more mpg you would need to get to offset that increased cost?

 

[Goudrons]

I bit of low engine speed judder and vibration feels kind of normal to me, having ridden big 2 or 3 cylinder bikes and driven other 2 and 3 cylinder cars.

I don't think the turbo helps (with the feeling), particularly when the rpm is really low and the gearing is high, the torque can feel a bit lumpy or strummy, but it's part of the charm, you'd soon get bored with a silky smooth V6!

I do understand the perception of being in the wrong gear.
Your ears are telling you to change down as you think the engine is struggling, but the car is happy to flog it's self pulling a higher gear, just go with it.

Also, don't forget the gears are all a touch lower in the 4x4, so try chug it around corners in 3rd where normally you'd select 2nd and turn the radio up!

I've been experimenting with my driving style a little and lifting off the throttle much sooner than I would in another car.
Seems the multiair valve arrangement will open the valves to reduce pumping losses on the over run, there's very little engine braking, which lets you glide along using little/no fuel until it needs another small prod to maintain speed or you have to stop, I got 57 mpg like this lastweek, dragging my bike trailer with a bike on it back from Northampton.

 

[triumph7]

I love the twinair now I've got used to it and am now averaging min 45mpg, up from 37 - 40..... Mileage now 8500

 

[triumph7]

I should have added that I never use the eco button as it doesn't improve mpg and renders the car dull dull dull to drive!

 

[Palio]

I love the twinair now I've got used to it and am now averaging min 45mpg, up from 37 - 40..... Mileage now 8500

I should have added that I never use the eco button as it doesn't improve mpg and renders the car dull dull dull to drive!

That sounds about right - my Mum's is doing 42ish mpg and she never uses the Eco horror & drives quite briskly. Hers is at about 7000 miles and has never suffered from rough running or issues around town (it does sound like a lawn mower from the outside, but there's little NVH transmitted into the cabin).

I must get hold of it to see what I can do by trying to drive economically, and what happens when I drive it in my normal lead footed manner.....

 

[JTD_Liam]

Eco does make the engine feel flatter and more boring, but in stop start traffic, it sounds like the OP might welcome the less unruly nature that Eco brings, hence I would recommend they at least try it.

Don't be fooled into thinking it'll improve economy though - in my experience (especially once on the open road) you have to drive the engine harder in Eco mode which actually harms economy, but round town it can be beneficial to smooth out junctions & roundabouts.

Incidently our TA now feels the same in Eco mode at 26,000 miles as it used to feel in normal mode when new - it's really perked up, so I'd encourage people to try it now & again, especially in the first 15,000 miles. The difference as the miles piled on was very noticeable for me.

 

[RS4]

I did try the Eco button by accident and initially though there was something seriously wrong with the poor thing, I shall give it a more thorough trial and see if it smooths things out.


Very much agree with the comments on 1st & 2nd gear ratios , maybe more use off road but day to day not quite right smooth progress on the road.


I do give it a tank of Super unleaded periodically but will try and use that all the time from now.


I was talking to a Salesman about the new cross and he was saying the Diesel has some new features that should make it smoother, revolves around the way the fuel is metered into the cylinder I think.


Many thanks for the all the replies, sounds like its not entirely down to my rubbish driving.