Technical Stilo JTD won't start

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Technical Stilo JTD won't start

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sprint750

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Dear all,

I finally got my RIBE set of bits. I was able to change the sensor, not an easy job as access is very poor. Hope I did well, as one cannot see clearly what's happening laying under the car. Sensor seems firmly attached, screwed up smoothly, conector made the usual Click, so let's say it"s OK..

As expected :cry: nothing changed. Engine still won't start, no new fault code, no message. BTW old sensor multimeter reading iresults in a cruel 920 Ohm :mad:... ok it was cheap...but replacing perfecly working equipment is never good for self esteem..


I checked once again the IMMO side (see attached), everything seems OK. Anyway as it operates during startup phase, it could not explain why engine died.


Remaining hypothesis are not that numerous:

- Wrong fittment (not fully engaged) or faulty new sensor...possible

- CMP sensor ... but no SYNC DTC...:(

- Engine timing (belt slipped and timing is Offset) - For information, belt is present and seems healthy,

- Final (power) stage of ECU unable to energize the INJ. I've got a spare but I must have the immo canceled on it.

- Power feed to ECU (fuses, relays) and engine acessories , as there are 4 of 5 lines,.

- Bad fuel quality or mixed with petrol ...WIF sensor says no water. (Updated : thanks to Abarth L for the suggestion ;) )



- ...?

Ok, I'm a bit upset not finding the problem when it used to be my job a few years ago.

But you have to be very humble in this business.You try, you fail and you learn everyday...:eek:

So back to the starting point.... engine won't start :confused:


Bes regards
Sebastien
 

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Abarth L

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It sucks, it surely aint due to a lack of truying.

I am no expert on a diesel, but what I do know about a diesel is the diesel pump timing and pressure is important.
So that would be my next step.

Hope it is diesel in the tank, been aware of fuel station pumping petrol or water by accident.
 
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sprint750

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I am no expert on a diesel, but what I do know about a diesel is the diesel pump timing and pressure is important.
So that would be my next step.
.

CR engines works like petrol engines. Pump is not timed. Injectors are energized at the right moment and for the right amount of time, like Otto engines.
Pump was able to produce up to 370b when cranking (Parameter reading with MES) Enough... Not enough... :confused: I know that there's a minimum threshold.But I can't imagine a pump failing sudenly, without any warning sign: Long startup phase, lack of power or something like that, plus suitable DTC...


I

Hope it is diesel in the tank, been aware of fuel station pumping petrol or water by accident.

This is an hypothesis that I have to consider now. Usually, it is at the bottom of the list; unless the tank have been recently refilled. BTW tank is 1/3 now, I didnt had any problem with the other 2/3. Fuel filter is recent. Thank you for the input, I updated my list.
B.R
Sebastien
 
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Abarth L

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Since your car died while on idle:
• glow plugs is not a consideration.
• the combustion chamber is well a consideration.
Can a shift in cam position be the cause that not enough compression pressure is produced?
• Electrical problem. You mention you have replaced the battery etc. Might be worth checking fuses, connections earthing etc, not just check but remove and replace, lossen and tighten to ensure no bad connection.
• fuel tank indication wrong. But then pressure should not build in rail.
 

jackwhoo

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CR engines works like petrol engines. Pump is not timed. Injectors are energized at the right moment and for the right amount of time, like Otto engines.
Pump was able to produce up to 370b when cranking (Parameter reading with MES) Enough... Not enough... :confused: I know that there's a minimum threshold.But I can't imagine a pump failing sudenly, without any warning sign: Long startup phase, lack of power or something like that, plus suitable DTC...




This is an hypothesis that I have to consider now. Usually, it is at the bottom of the list; unless the tank have been recently refilled. BTW tank is 1/3 now, I didnt had any problem with the other 2/3. Fuel filter is recent. Thank you for the input, I updated my list.
B.R
Sebastien
I did post that 2003 jtd will not start without signal from cam sensor and may not produce a fault code.

If cam sensor is a three wire hall effect sensor, back probe the connector using multimeter (one lead to a good ground on engine) look for supply v+ with ingnition on or cranking on starter.

If you find supply +ve then one of the other leads is the signal . Signal lead should switch between 0v and supply +ve v when engine cranking. The third lead is ground.

Is the camshaft rotating when cranking on starter?

Very true what you posted about trying, failing and learning....this whole week has been very much like that for me

370 bar cranking fuel rail should be fine to start.
 
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sprint750

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Problem solved... fior the moment

Dear all,

On saturday I studied the electricals of the vehicle, with the repair manual at hand:+24V PERM, +Aft IGN and GND were the main target
I also wanted to check whether the connection was OK between CKP sensor and ECU (changed the sensor, but maybe harness was faulty)

So I performed:

Starting attempt (long) : failed, like the day before

+24V checkings on the engine fuse box (in the battery box)
- all OK, both on Perm+ and +Aft. IGN

GND Checks.
- All OK (from body to Batt, no unusual resistance)

I disconnected the ECU and checked the GND, all OK. +24V is not easy to check as I didn't have the right probe to check inside the Bosch connector and anyway, most of the +24V feed to ECU are energized by the ECU itself, driving relays inside the battery box. So there's no point checking with the ECU disconnected.
The perfect tool would be a breakout box, were you can check all the lines with ECU connected, but I don't have one, like we had in the workshop back in the days.
I also got a lot of errors from various ECU (airbag etc...) not directly connected to engine function...
confused.gif



Wanted to check the impedance of the CKP sensor on ECU point of view (haness side) but as said previously, I needed cloth pins to access, so I gave up for the moment. So I reconnected the ECU

Some inputs suggested to check fuel supply. So I did. Recoverd approx. 10 Oz. within a few seconds. (KeyON, key OFF) I was expecting more, but without reference values in hand I had to consider this as OK. Anyway it was far more than the fuel consumption expected in such amount of time. And fuel was ... fuel (colour, odour, cleanliness), nothing to suspect on this side.

So as the battery was on the low side, I decided to try a last starting attempt until it run dry, as I was about to charge the battery anyway (n)

THIS ****ING THING STARTED ON THE FIRST COMPRESSION....with ultra weak battery :( Perfect idle. No hesitation, no vibration, no smoke. Business as usual...

So now I 'm in between Satisfaction (been sitting for too long...:bang: ) and frustration: I positively CANNOT explain why it started as I didn't performed any repair since the day before, only checkings.

Until now (cross fingers) it starts perfectly every time... but as we were not able to identify the root cause, maybe it'll comme back sooner or later. Who knows ?

So for now, Stilo is still inder survey.

Best regards
Sebastien
 
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Abarth L

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That is excellent news ?✨

That is what I was referring to by unplugging and plugging back connections, it might have been just an old oxidized contact that required a kick..

At least there is now also a new sensor installed?
 
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sprint750

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That is excellent news ?✨
That is what I was referring to by unplugging and plugging back connections, it might have been just an old oxidized contact that required a kick..

Ok, if it had been sitting for month (y)

Not OK in my specific case.


Note that I already had a problem with wifey's IDEA 1.3 JTD
Refused to start, immo problem, no lights etc... Body computer seemed dead

I removed the fuse box+body computer which are attached and connects each other. (Not an east job). The body computer showed no trace of internal damage, water ingress or short circuit.So I sprayed some contact cleaner on the connections (Fuse box to vehicle, Body to vehicle and Fuse Box to Body interface). When testing, everything was back. !!
Previously, whe had been plagued with water ingress problems (from windscreen ou Sliding roof... never found) and this was certainly the root cause for oxidization of some contacts.

ANYWAY, THANK YOU ALL for your support. This is the most important. Even if you're not given the solution ilmediately, you get some tricks, path, ideas that leads you to the solution.(Alone, you go faster, together, you go further ;))

Regards
Sebastien
 
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sprint750

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Dear All,

Some news from the Stilo.

Works perfectly since it fired again, starts each time on the 1st compression. ;)


So a lot of chance that CKP sensor was the culprit, despite the facts that the symptoms were not exactly the same as usually. (unable to start, even when cooled down :confused:) and that It didn't worked right up after the repair, but the next day.


I will keep you informed if I find something else.

And once again, thank you all for your support.

Best regards
Sebastien
 
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