Technical Starting issue - with an odd twist.

[Lockett190]

Hello folks -

just joined because of this ongoing issue. This may all be in vein as it’s a doblo cargo van and `I couldn’t see a section for it…. But ill try and explain the problem first.
It’s a starting issue that has shown up when only 3 months old and seems to be cold temp (below than or equal to freezing) related. I picked up the van in Jan 18 new and when the temp dropped below freezing the van made a very slight attempt to turnover and stopped, while making a whining noise. Eventually started it and went in for diagnostics - no fault found. Started each time. The next year weather was mild so no faults. In 2020 the weather dropped below and van wouldn’t start, same symptoms, slight turn of the starter motor and stopped while whining. Almost as if there was only just enough power in the batt to turn it slightly. New batt fitted having assumed this was a power issue, this made no difference. Went in for diagnostics at a different garage under warranty, they thought at first it was an earth strap fault so changed it as it looked suspect, however couldn't tell me the resistance…. van came home and faulted again during more cold weather that week, van went back in they were told by fiat Milan to fit a refurbished starter motor, initially this caused more problems as they fitted it and on every start it wouldn’t mesh / engage with the flywheel…. I had quite a long talk with the garage asking why they kept trying it, knowing this could be doing damage to the pinion when and possibly the flywheel and after some convincing they spoke with fiat Milan and agreed to fit a new starter motor (brand new) this was fitted and it now started each time correctly and has been okay until this weeks cold spell again. very similar symptoms but actually turning over the engine albeit very slowly almost like the battery was flat. Ive fitted a new battery fully charged up and it made no difference whatsoever. Knowing that this seems to be a cold related issue, I jacked the van up and have warmed up the starter motor for a few minutes and tried to start again, the van kicked into life straight away like it was full of power. Ive Spoken to fiat who want me to get a diagnosis from a local garage at my cost initially, but have said that because ive warmed it up the problem is no longer there until possibly more cold weather so no fault to find…. They didn’t understand my frustration at conveying this fact. Ive then spoken to the garage who did the starter swap warranty work to ask for any suggestions relating to known issues with starter motors as I feel like this is more that coincidence to have two starters go faulty when cold, unless there are known issues… they say they’ve not seen that before ( how many times have I heard that) So my problem is that I feel if I personally swap the starter myself for another new one that `I may just be fitting like for like if its an inherent issue. The starter didn’t look to have any visible water / frozen patches on it - but some frozen water was apparent in the vicinity of the engine bay which will have come down from the scuttle panel / freeze thaw cycle.

My thoughts are that somehow cold or water are affecting the solenoid /and or starter either by going high resistance /Lack of continuity etc. There has never been any issues when it rains or driving in the rain, but then again water doesn’t go right up to the starter I dont think when its wet out. Ive never had water in the engine bay so im unsure if that affects it - the starter looked dry when I warmed it up. The fact that this has happened on two separate starters suggests possibly that it’s a wider issue - but cant find any information relating to such a problem. What do know is when it snows and temp goes below the starter seemingly doesn’t want to turn over and exhibits the symptoms of a failing battery - you warm it up and its like new…. Im obviously looking for anyone who has experienced this or knows of this phenomenon.

thoughts welcome. Dave..

 

[sludgeguts]

You don't say what engine you have but here's my twopenn'orth.
Cold weather and batteries don't make for a good relationship. My 2006, 1.9jtd lump was sluggish in the winter. It seemed that Fiat were sending out these behemoths with the cheapest little batteries they felt they could get away with.

I pulled the plastic shield from around the battery tray and measured the actual size of the space available then looked online to see what the most powerful (in terms of cold crank amps) battery was - the running amps and cold crank amps of my current battery is way, way more than that recommended for the dobbin on battery sites and not a single issue with starting although I have ALWAYS had to wait for the glowplug light to go out!

 

[murfman53]

Hello folks -

just joined because of this ongoing issue. This may all be in vein as it’s a doblo cargo van and `I couldn’t see a section for it…. But ill try and explain the problem first.
It’s a starting issue that has shown up when only 3 months old and seems to be cold temp (below than or equal to freezing) related. I picked up the van in Jan 18 new and when the temp dropped below freezing the van made a very slight attempt to turnover and stopped, while making a whining noise. Eventually started it and went in for diagnostics - no fault found. Started each time. The next year weather was mild so no faults. In 2020 the weather dropped below and van wouldn’t start, same symptoms, slight turn of the starter motor and stopped while whining. Almost as if there was only just enough power in the batt to turn it slightly. New batt fitted having assumed this was a power issue, this made no difference. Went in for diagnostics at a different garage under warranty, they thought at first it was an earth strap fault so changed it as it looked suspect, however couldn't tell me the resistance…. van came home and faulted again during more cold weather that week, van went back in they were told by fiat Milan to fit a refurbished starter motor, initially this caused more problems as they fitted it and on every start it wouldn’t mesh / engage with the flywheel…. I had quite a long talk with the garage asking why they kept trying it, knowing this could be doing damage to the pinion when and possibly the flywheel and after some convincing they spoke with fiat Milan and agreed to fit a new starter motor (brand new) this was fitted and it now started each time correctly and has been okay until this weeks cold spell again. very similar symptoms but actually turning over the engine albeit very slowly almost like the battery was flat. Ive fitted a new battery fully charged up and it made no difference whatsoever. Knowing that this seems to be a cold related issue, I jacked the van up and have warmed up the starter motor for a few minutes and tried to start again, the van kicked into life straight away like it was full of power. Ive Spoken to fiat who want me to get a diagnosis from a local garage at my cost initially, but have said that because ive warmed it up the problem is no longer there until possibly more cold weather so no fault to find…. They didn’t understand my frustration at conveying this fact. Ive then spoken to the garage who did the starter swap warranty work to ask for any suggestions relating to known issues with starter motors as I feel like this is more that coincidence to have two starters go faulty when cold, unless there are known issues… they say they’ve not seen that before ( how many times have I heard that) So my problem is that I feel if I personally swap the starter myself for another new one that `I may just be fitting like for like if its an inherent issue. The starter didn’t look to have any visible water / frozen patches on it - but some frozen water was apparent in the vicinity of the engine bay which will have come down from the scuttle panel / freeze thaw cycle.

My thoughts are that somehow cold or water are affecting the solenoid /and or starter either by going high resistance /Lack of continuity etc. There has never been any issues when it rains or driving in the rain, but then again water doesn’t go right up to the starter I dont think when its wet out. Ive never had water in the engine bay so im unsure if that affects it - the starter looked dry when I warmed it up. The fact that this has happened on two separate starters suggests possibly that it’s a wider issue - but cant find any information relating to such a problem. What do know is when it snows and temp goes below the starter seemingly doesn’t want to turn over and exhibits the symptoms of a failing battery - you warm it up and its like new…. Im obviously looking for anyone who has experienced this or knows of this phenomenon.

thoughts welcome. Dave..

I had the same problem but it was on a 1.4 petrol doblo. The car was brought to many garages, with new starter,battery, earth lead,but came back with the same fault. I looked closely at the battery terminals, they were clean, but I got someone to try starting the car while I got a multi meter and discovered voltage was down to 10 volts!!! The battery voltage was 14. 4 volts when not used.
I renewed the 2 battery clamps with brass ones and the car starts every time since That was 3 years ago. I didn't have an amp clamp at the time, which you can use around the positive lead on the battery, and while someone is cranking for you, you can check the readings. I would imagine the amp reading are too low for starting. Its worth a try.
John.

 

[Lockett190]

I had the same problem but it was on a 1.4 petrol doblo. The car was brought to many garages, with new starter,battery, earth lead,but came back with the same fault. I looked closely at the battery terminals, they were clean, but I got someone to try starting the car while I got a multi meter and discovered voltage was down to 10 volts!!! The battery voltage was 14. 4 volts when not used.
I renewed the 2 battery clamps with brass ones and the car starts every time since That was 3 years ago. I didn't have an amp clamp at the time, which you can use around the positive lead on the battery, and while someone is cranking for you, you can check the readings. I would imagine the amp reading are too low for starting. Its worth a try.
John.

Extremely sorry for very late reply….. I checked in a few times on the forum to see if anyone had replied and after a short while and with no notifications alerting me to the fact i’d had any, thought it was dead in the water……

I haven’t done any further tests as yet, certainly nothing too extensive apart from visual, but I do intend to. The problem being that the issue only becomes apparent when the temp is very low - certainly in the 0- range and below.

The most conclusive test I did, as already pointed out was that with the fault apparent, I warmed up only the starter motor and attached solenoid for a short period with a hairdryer, say 1 minute and the fault disappeared and never came back after that, even the subsequent few colder days that came. But this is also the issue the fact that there is some degree of intermittency when it does.

Seems really odd that the exact same fault appeared on a new starter motor / solenoid as it did on the original one. That’s why to some degree I felt it better to ask specifically if anyone else had experienced the fault as i thought it may be more widespread.

As a previous poster suggested, I have also upgraded the battery for a better one in terms of CCA, this is the second new battery Ive fitted assuming it was the battery - but didn’t solve the issue.

Im convinced that there is some sort of conductivity / resistance issue that becomes apparent only when it’s cold. I think the only way is to test further when the fault appears - possibly looking for voltage drop on both the positive and the ground wires from the battery to the solenoid, maybe even a separate volt drop from the solenoid to the starter…. Just wondering if condensation/ water could make it onto the solenoid terminals inside and then freeze…. Then again I would have thought the heat generated from the high resistance would counter the problem after a few seconds of trying to start….

Seems a very odd problem, I only ever saw one video on YouTube which was anything like the issue that I had.

 

[varesecrazy]

Worth carrying jumpleads..

To rule out a poor earth connection

Then clip onto a running vehicles battery

If Neither help.. you have learnt something

 

[Lockett190]

Definitely, at the time I did try jumping the battery - this was to rule out a flat / defective battery. I did also change the battery for a bigger capacity and CCa , However this made no change. What I should have done to also rule out the ground and positive leads would have been to attach ground to -post and engine and +post to solenoid terminal. This may have then ruled out or found a high resistance on one or both of the paths. The problem as I see it is somehow with the starter, however it was also with the last starter too. So either there is an inherent problem with starters….. this forum suggests that’s not the case really, or I'm incredibly unlucky. I could change the starter for another make possibly, but first of all I need the fault to reappear and then eliminate all other possibilities like the ground / positive cabling.

 

[varesecrazy]

Electrics can be hard work

We have to remember.. there should be no element of 'wear'.. as it started basically from day 1..

The fact it Tries to crank the engine seems to point to the Ignition switch connecting to Fire the Starter Solenoid..

But something is stopping it developing full power .. ONLY WHEN COLD

Its a strange one..as many poor connections show up as a HOT issue.. being at least Functional when cold

So..earth cable, starter .. both changed and no difference

Cost-wise I would go for the obvious 'missing link' there.. youve changed the Black cable..how about the RED?

 

[cris1117]

I have come across a similar problem before and it took me ages to track down, have you checked the engine earth strap has actually been renewed and is tight?

The one I had in had a new earth strap fitted but at some point a wrong bolt had been used and although it was spanner tight the bolt was slightly too long and tightening against the blind part of the bolt hole.

The cure was a shorter bolt or you could use a thick washer.
This caused an intermittent starting problem especially when cold so worth a look.

If that seems ok then check the load cable to the starter is tight maybe someone has left a washer off so although it feels spanner tight it may not be bearing down on the cable connector enough.
Once someone makes a mistake like this it just keeps being repeated, a mechanic just puts it back how he finds it not realising it was previously done wrong.

 

[varesecrazy]

There is a spacer arrangement in the starter cabling.. often refitted poorly

but I dont think that would make things intermittent?

 

[Lockett190]

There is a spacer arrangement in the starter cabling.. often refitted poorly

but I dont think that would make things intermittent?

Yes, there’s a few things to go at there - and very much value everyone’s input, thank you. Yes, everything has been changed except the load / positive cable. But as has been suggested, re-check others work - which I will do. I will be going under the van in the next few weeks for its service, so that would be an opportune time to do some visuals and possibly some electrical checks. I can check volt drop on the load cable too. The van hasn’t presented any problems since then, and historically will only do it when below -(0) so again opportunity to actually have the fault present of which I'm trying to diagnose is obviously a challenge. I wondered if I could spray the starter with pipe freeze spray to simulate the issue but it’s not really the same. I will of course check the tightness and integrity of the cables coming down to the ground and the load side on the solenoid. Ive not really heard of cables breaking down when cold though, and being okay when ambient.