Technical Starter Dead

[dangfiat]

Hi All,

Thanks for helping me solve my carb/timing problem. New issue has cropped up.

The starter will no longer respond when I pull the starter handle. I can feel the mechanism actuating, but it won't start. Every once in a while it will spin the motor and the car will fire right up. This happened after prolonged using the starter trying to fix timing/carb issues.

Questions:
1. is the starter on a fuse on a '67 500F with a 650 motor (from a 126P)?
2. Would a failed voltage regulator be the issue?
3. Could it just be a busted starter? How easy are these to replace?
4. Battery? I don't think so as it just seems dead.... but I still get lights and it runs if I bump start it

Thanks for the help as always.

Cheers
Daniel

 

[fiat500]

It won't be reasons one or two. It will probably be a frayed or stretched starter actuating cable. It might be dirty or damaged contacts in the switch that connects the battery cable to the starter.
You can test this if, from the back of the car, you can very carefully push on the lever on the starter sufficient to mimic the normal action. You may find it a fiddle, but you could also use a strong stick too do the same.
Reconditioned ones are widely available and quite easy to fit.
Remember to try this with the ignition turned off....the starter should still operate.

 

[Toshi 975]

Is the starter the cable pull type or solenoid operated ?
I refurbished seven starters last year and recorded my thoughts and findings in a thread titled ‘Starter Motor Rampage’ which you can easily find.

 

[dangfiat]

Thanks both. The starter is cable pull (unless the previous owner did something very weird and hooked up a solenoid to the pull cable)

@Toshi 975 : Thanks, I'll check out your thread shortly

I'm starting to think it's possibly the cable or the contacts. It started to not engage at first (would just spin the starter or grind on the ring gear). Then it just went dead but...... every once in a while it cranks and the car starts... I'm thinking either:
1. The heat caused some sort of solenoid/contact failure or...
2. The cable is just a bit stretched?
3. I just need to buy a new rebuilt starter.

Haven't been under the car yet (been mostly timing/carb till now). How hard is is to get that starter and cable out? And is there a way to tighten the cable (either at the handle or the starter side)?

Thanks again

Daniel

 

[fiat500]

Thanks both. The starter is cable pull (unless the previous owner did something very weird and hooked up a solenoid to the pull cable)

@Toshi 975 : Thanks, I'll check out your thread shortly

I'm starting to think it's possibly the cable or the contacts. It started to not engage at first (would just spin the starter or grind on the ring gear). Then it just went dead but...... every once in a while it cranks and the car starts... I'm thinking either:
1. The heat caused some sort of solenoid/contact failure or...
2. The cable is just a bit stretched?
3. I just need to buy a new rebuilt starter.

Haven't been under the car yet (been mostly timing/carb till now). How hard is is to get that starter and cable out? And is there a way to tighten the cable (either at the handle or the starter side)?

Thanks again

Daniel

It's no more fiddly to remove that many cars and miles easier to remove than many.
Before you poke about down there be sure to disconnect the battery.
The starter-pull cable is designed to be adjusted at the starter lever on the motor. It has a clevis with three pairs of holes which allows a split-pin to be removed and replaced to give more tension and hence a better pull. That adjustment is fiddly and can cause bad words to be said and knuckles and forehead to be damaged....there is a knack that comes of many attempts.

 

[dangfiat]

hehe, thanks! Bad words are par for the course. But I did make a new friend when it wouldn't restart at the gas station. A kind fellow helped push it back and forth for a while until it finally caught. Old cars do sometimes restore my faith in humanity

 

[myoshik]

I would also recommend the test that fiat500 suggested using a stick...its very easy to do and may help rule out a number of possible issues. Unlikely a battery problem, but won't hurt to make sure its good and the generator (or alternator if that's what you have) is working properly.

Regarding removal of the starter, that is also relatively simple. You don't need to, but removing the thermostat housing and distributor will make it even easier to access and wont require you to go under the car.

 

[dangfiat]

Interestingly, I got home tonight and decided to just pull the starter lever.... cranked the motor fine but.... it does sound like the gear is not meshing properly (a little bit of cranking and then just the starter spinning sound).. almost like the bendix is going or I'm not pulling it far enough

Checked the starter, it's a side mount. doesn't seem too hard to pull out

The cable is pretty slack (loose). The end at the starter has 3 holes (see pic)

, maybe I try the closest hole? How tight should the cable be?

I'm also thinking maybe I got fuel on the starter switch or something or it just does not like being hot (like the switch is going?)

Anyway, I'll try to run it around the block a few times and get it hot then shut it down for a few minutes and see if it re-fires. Probably do that tomorrow.

Debating whether to get all the parts from Ricambio (yoke, switch, brushes, etc) and rebuild what I got or bite the bullet and just spend the money and get a rebuilt starter (will have to pay the deposit... makes little sense to send the core back to the UK). Let me know you folks thoughts on rebuild or buy

Cheers and thanks all! And I still have to read Toshi's rebuild thread (I'm getting to it, have to finish up work first)

 

[Toshi 975]

I would say rebuild but then of course I would say that.
If you or anybody makes use of the push stick method make sure that there is an insulating boot over the connection of the large cable from the battery. Can get exciting otherwise, if the pull cable shorts out on that lead the cable will light up like the element in an electric fire taking the temper out of the cable so it will just snap under any tension.

 

[fiat500]

I would say rebuild but then of course I would say that.
If you or anybody makes use of the push stick method make sure that there is an insulating boot over the connection of the large cable from the battery. Can get exciting otherwise, if the pull cable shorts out on that lead the cable will light up like the element in an electric fire taking the temper out of the cable so it will just snap under any tension.

I wonder how you know that Dave?

 

[dangfiat]

Update, finally got to try to clean(ish) the switch contacts and tried the "push the lever with a stick" approach. No life to the starter. I've ordered a rebuilt starter from Ricambio. Should get here next tuesday.

Thought about the rebuild route.... just figure get the rebuilt one. Lord knows someting would go wrong with the rebuild and I'd be swearing at it again

Cheers and thanks everybody
Daniel

 

[Toshi 975]

Update, finally got to try to clean(ish) the switch contacts and tried the "push the lever with a stick" approach. No life to the starter. I've ordered a rebuilt starter from Ricambio. Should get here next tuesday.

Thought about the rebuild route.... just figure get the rebuilt one. Lord knows someting would go wrong with the rebuild and I'd be swearing at it again

Cheers and thanks everybody
Daniel

How does it work out when you are in the US and Ricambio want a £100 deposit until you return your broken starter motor?

 

[dangfiat]

Unfortunately for those of us on this side of the pond... It's essentially a sunk cost. That's the price of having a small Euro car habit over here

 

[Toshi 975]

Unfortunately for those of us on this side of the pond... It's essentially a sunk cost. That's the price of having a small Euro car habit over here

Well we are having to pay the price of being out of Europe here in the UK even though we are almost within touching distance.
If you are saying that you are keeping your old starter there in the US that makes for one very expensive recon starter but on the upside there maybe somebody over there that would appreciate your old starter to rebuild.
I have sold a couple of the seven starters I reconditioned last year at £140 each plus I have two new factory reconditioned ones available for a little more. Shame you did not ask I could have saved you a lot of $

 

[dangfiat]

Well we are having to pay the price of being out of Europe here in the UK even though we are almost within touching distance.
If you are saying that you are keeping your old starter there in the US that makes for one very expensive recon starter but on the upside there maybe somebody over there that would appreciate your old starter to rebuild.
I have sold a couple of the seven starters I reconditioned last year at £140 each plus I have two new factory reconditioned ones available for a little more. Shame you did not ask I could have saved you a lot of $

Well dangit! I appreciate the kind words Toshi. And perhaps someone over this side can use my old starter. Parts are pretty hard to come by without involving DHL over here (although I will admit they do get shipped quickly! -- I ordered yesterday and it'll get here tuesday)

One of these days I might start asking around for an old carb as I start the upgrade or another head to "practice" porting... Might practice first on a few old 998 A-Series heads first

Have a good weekend!

 

[the hobbler]

Well dangit! I appreciate the kind words Toshi. And perhaps someone over this side can use my old starter. Parts are pretty hard to come by without involving DHL over here (although I will admit they do get shipped quickly! -- I ordered yesterday and it'll get here tuesday)

One of these days I might start asking around for an old carb as I start the upgrade or another head to "practice" porting... Might practice first on a few old 998 A-Series heads first

Have a good weekend!

I have just spent quite a few hours 'porting' a 126 head----if you would like to contact me direct, I could give you a few ideas regarding 'porting' the 500 or 126 head---- [email protected]

 

[Toshi 975]

Well dangit! I appreciate the kind words Toshi. And perhaps someone over this side can use my old starter. Parts are pretty hard to come by without involving DHL over here (although I will admit they do get shipped quickly! -- I ordered yesterday and it'll get here tuesday)

One of these days I might start asking around for an old carb as I start the upgrade or another head to "practice" porting... Might practice first on a few old 998 A-Series heads first

Have a good weekend!

I would say that anybody, anywhere in the world, would be well advised to ask here if they are looking for parts. I know I do on the occasions I need something. I do not mean the simple easy to get bits.
As for porting I got into that a bit more myself in recent years. I had a couple of heads fitted with enlarged inlet valves and ported some years ago, quite expensive I thought but doable and it certainly worked. More recently I got a couple of quotes with guys talking about £600 for a small alloy head which I thought was outrageous. Got a little friendly advice then used my own judgement. Conclusions were do not remove too much material on the inlet port as that will slow down the air/fuel mixture gas flow speed but make sure the port is compatible with anything carb through the manifold. If larger valves and seats are fitted then that will require some blending.
Simply fixing an old exhaust elbow gasket at the exhaust exit port will show you how much material can be remove then blended deeper into the port.
I tried to imagine that a fluid was pumping through the head so what corners or joints/junctions would impede flow or cause turbulence.
Have Dremel, will Port

 

[the hobbler]

I would say that anybody, anywhere in the world, would be well advised to ask here if they are looking for parts. I know I do on the occasions I need something. I do not mean the simple easy to get bits.
As for porting I got into that a bit more myself in recent years. I had a couple of heads fitted with enlarged inlet valves and ported some years ago, quite expensive I thought but doable and it certainly worked. More recently I got a couple of quotes with guys talking about £600 for a small alloy head which I thought was outrageous. Got a little friendly advice then used my own judgement. Conclusions were do not remove too much material on the inlet port as that will slow down the air/fuel mixture gas flow speed but make sure the port is compatible with anything carb through the manifold. If larger valves and seats are fitted then that will require some blending.
Simply fixing an old exhaust elbow gasket at the exhaust exit port will show you how much material can be remove then blended deeper into the port.
I tried to imagine that a fluid was pumping through the head so what corners or joints/junctions would impede flow or cause turbulence.
Have Dremel, will Port
View attachment 420391View attachment 420392View attachment 420393

£600 for fully porting a "small alloy head" (a 500/126 head?) may SEEM to be a large amount of money for such a small head, but when you break it down, it isn't really. Up here in North Wales, the average (charged) labour-rate in most of the small garages (not the big dealerships) is about £70 per hour + VAT. £600 is only 8-1/2 hours work, and I can assure you, if you also port and 'port-match' the small cast iron 'elbows' as well as the head, that is a GOOD days work as the exhaust ports in the head and the exhaust 'elbows' have to be polished (inlet ports only 'smoothed'). I use both a Dremel (for finishing and initial smoothing) and an old "1 speed' drill with more heavy-weight grinders for the initial "large amounts to come off". I have 'ported' quite a number of 126 heads. including Pand30---if I can be of help to anybody contemplating doing their own head, I would be pleased to help. [email protected]

 

[Toshi 975]

£600 for fully porting a "small alloy head" (a 500/126 head?) may SEEM to be a large amount of money for such a small head, but when you break it down, it isn't really. Up here in North Wales, the average (charged) labour-rate in most of the small garages (not the big dealerships) is about £70 per hour + VAT. £600 is only 8-1/2 hours work, and I can assure you, if you also port and 'port-match' the small cast iron 'elbows' as well as the head, that is a GOOD days work as the exhaust ports in the head and the exhaust 'elbows' have to be polished (inlet ports only 'smoothed'). I use both a Dremel (for finishing and initial smoothing) and an old "1 speed' drill with more heavy-weight grinders for the initial "large amounts to come off". I have 'ported' quite a number of 126 heads. including Pand30---if I can be of help to anybody contemplating doing their own head, I would be pleased to help. [email protected]

Actually the exact figures quoted were more than that and also qualified by “from” with vat on top of that. Personally I prefer to spend a morning cradling a head in my lap getting covered in aluminium particles and still have a healthy wallet at the end of the day. I tended not to use actual cutters on the aluminium in case they dug in apart from when I opened the inlet port on a 500 head to suit the carb upgrades but I found the small cylinder type abrasive tube to be so effective on the aluminium but you do get through a few, must have cost me almost £5 in replacements. Unless you get some of the really bad exhaust elbow castings then they just benefit from a lick to take the roughness off the cast surface as they are generally quite accurately made.
I think that if a professional told me it would take over 8 hours to port a 500/126 head I might question what equipment was being used, scraped out with a mustard spoon perhaps
The first head I had worked on before I had the confidence to do porting was by an old school guy that worked mainly on racing motorcycles and also drove annually at the Isle of Man event on his BSA. He ported the head, fitted all new valve seats including larger inlet valve seats for just over £200. Sadly now retired as he had a major workshop at his home which was much in demand.
elbow comparison, good original in the middle.

 

[dangfiat]

Thanks to the both of you, it's quite an informative and entertaining discussion!

Just got my starter in the post and will get after making the darn thing run this weekend (lord I hope I don't have to rerun the cable from the battery or anything like that - hoping for at least one straight forward job!!)

Assuming the little Fiat works (and reliably), the plan is to use it to drive back and forth to work while the wife takes the Tesla. In the meantime, I have to finish the 7port on the Riley Elf (yay A-Series!)

Until then I'm saving ALL THE PENNIES !!! Going to do a street able 700cc, nothing fancy just a nice reliable zippy motor

btw: Anyone ever look at these Split Shaft 40DCOE progressive? They split the shaft and add a vacuum valve to make the side drafts a 2barrel progressive carb. Sounds kind of ideal.....

Oh, pic of my A-Series for fun!!