Technical Start-Stop system disaster - MultiECUscan expert users help please!

[Tropicalmike]

Hi ,

I used MultiECUscan (MES) to assist me in trying to get the Start-Stop working on my wife's 500S Twinair (85PS) . This after I had eliminated a battery and battery sensor issue . It seemed to point to some thing with the clutch released or the gear in neutral signal.

I had read the FCA e-learn guide on start-stop that is very helpful
https://lab-aftersales.fiat.com/ele...AND+RECHARING&nodeID=312008844&nodeName= STOP

The parameters for the start-stop system working showed "on" and "not active" it just wouldn't stop. The parameters were the same as on our other 500 where the start-stop worked OK.


The parameters for clutch released and gear in neutral (not reverse) indicated correctly too.

I noticed the clutch position sensor showed 1.5% when the clutch was released and I then noticed in the adjustments part there was a "clutch position learning" and also a neutral gear learning that referred to it being used for start-stop . I then carried out the procedures but it brought up a warning triangle, engine fault light and the message "start-stop unavailable" on the instrument cluster instead.


But then I couldn't restart the engine at all . I tried to clear the errors but they stayed "present " . I tried the procedures again and disconnected the battery for 15 mins but no joy ,


So I am now stuck and unable to start the car at all with the key , never mind about start-stop not working!!!

Any ideas on how to reset these parameters/errors in the ECM from MES or other .

I have scrolled through other threads on start-stop where there are a few opinions on start stop so I would really appreciate just technical advice to solve this issue

Thanks in advance

 

[Paschal Ryan]

looks like no one here has any information, total waste this so called Fiat Forum

 

[A3jeroen]

IIRC the sensor on the clutch pedal is similar tot the brake switch. To adjust the brake switch one needs to lift the brakepedal, pull out the stift in the switch and carefully release the pedal in the "zero"position. I would try the same with the clutch. Some cars need the clutch pressed to start (much like my motorbike). Maybe the ECU thinks the clutch is not pressed.

gr J

looks like no one here has any information, total waste this so called Fiat Forum

Thanks for this very helpfull remark. Sometimes members have other things to do instead of answering within minutes.

 

[varesecrazy]

looks like no one here has any information, total waste this so called Fiat Forum

Which forum offers detailed technical responses within 2 minutes?

Best you migrate there..

 

[varesecrazy]

@puntodeltathema
I know you have delved into some of this with twinairs..

@s130 potentially is aware of any lessons previously learned with such procedures

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi ,

I used MultiECUscan (MES) to assist me in trying to get the Start-Stop working on my wife's 500S Twinair (85PS) . This after I had eliminated a battery and battery sensor issue . It seemed to point to some thing with the clutch released or the gear in neutral signal.

I had read the FCA e-learn guide on start-stop that is very helpful
https://lab-aftersales.fiat.com/elearn/main_content.aspx?markID=1&markName=Fiat&modelID=312000000&modelName=150+-+500&valID=312000006&validityName=0.9+Twinair+&DocumentTypeActive=manuale&documentType=Manual&DocumentTypeId=8&languageId=2&languageNavId=2&regionId=2&VIN=ZFA3120000J259644&nodeName=PETROL+INJECTION+SYSTEM&nodeName=PETROL+ENGINES+ELECTRONIC+MANAGEMENT&nodeName=STARTING+AND+RECHARING&nodeID=312008844&nodeName= STOP

The parameters for the start-stop system working showed "on" and "not active" it just wouldn't stop. The parameters were the same as on our other 500 where the start-stop worked OK.
View attachment 454309

The parameters for clutch released and gear in neutral (not reverse) indicated correctly too.

I noticed the clutch position sensor showed 1.5% when the clutch was released and I then noticed in the adjustments part there was a "clutch position learning" and also a neutral gear learning that referred to it being used for start-stop . I then carried out the procedures but it brought up a warning triangle, engine fault light and the message "start-stop unavailable" on the instrument cluster instead.
View attachment 454308

But then I couldn't restart the engine at all . I tried to clear the errors but they stayed "present " . I tried the procedures again and disconnected the battery for 15 mins but no joy ,
View attachment 454306

So I am now stuck and unable to start the car at all with the key , never mind about start-stop not working!!!

Any ideas on how to reset these parameters/errors in the ECM from MES or other .

I have scrolled through other threads on start-stop where there are a few opinions on start stop so I would really appreciate just technical advice to solve this issue

Thanks in advance

Have you made any progress?

 

[jackwhoo]

Try push start , if that works look into the code for the starter relay

 

[varesecrazy]

I've been trawling SEARCH on here,
(No success yet..)

Somebody had a similar non- start scenario recently

 

[jackwhoo]

I've been trawling SEARCH on here,

Somebody had a similar non- start scenario recently

Was that the one after op all resetting parameters could not get starter motor to operate?
If it was they had a fuel system code , the code was only deleted following mes fuel system purge but waiting 15seconds extra after mes stated complete.

 

[varesecrazy]

Quite possibly..

I didn't find that thread today though..

 

[jackwhoo]

Quite possibly..

I didn't find that thread today though..

500 Engine will not crank after reset with Multiscanecu | FIAT 500 (2007+)

With Multiscanecu i reset self learned functions and self adaption parameter reset. Now the car will not crank at all with no errors displayed . I thought it was the immobiliser not recognised but all look correct when looking through parameters if i press remote button it displays code and...

www.fiatforum.com

??

 

[varesecrazy]

Excellent, that's the one

Just waiting for @Tropicalmike to update us

 

[puntodeltathema]

@puntodeltathema
I know you have delved into some of this with twinairs..

Sorry not sure I can offer much here. Though one thing to try is disconnecting the battery for longer (say 24 hrs) - the "red" errors may turn "black" which might allow you to clear them (at least).

Only other thought is to take the "open circuit" indication at face value - worth checking fuses maybe (if there are any in the starter relay or S&S circuits?)

 

[Tropicalmike]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the constructive responses .
I had left the battery disconnected overnight but it made no difference.
I had removed the start relay T20 and bench tested it OK, also start fuse OK . That brought up the appropriate fault code that i could clear when the relay was plugged back in .
Searching the internet on DTC P080A confirms it is the clutch sensor alignment and one youtube clip states that it could block the engine from starting.
This 69 plate 500 requires the clutch pressed before starting . So I am pretty confident this is what is blocking the start because the ECM is not getting the signal to say clutch is pressed . Our older 500 does not require the require the clutch pressed to start
I just need a way to reset the fault and/or carry out the sensor learning. This issue is self inflicted by me trying to carry out the clutch learning. I am wondering if the MES procedure is not correct, at least for this model software version. I don't think there is a hardware issue

Has anyone got any experience contacting Gendan ( UK distributor for MES ) to give feedback / get advice from MES?

I will be getting some assistance tomorrow to turn the key and push the clutch for me whilst I short the start relay T20 to hopefully start the engine again . I can then try and clear the alarm and do the clutch learning procedure again as below

To be honest , I am not hopeful it will work and I may have to take the car to a Fiat Dealer , hopefully I can drive it there rather than get it towed! .
I searched the FCA E-Learn and found their diagnostics/action as below screen shots.

I did think about contacting a local auto electrician who might have a professional DTC tool . But unless someone knows of specific make/model. He might just confirm what I already know and not be able to resolve it.

In regards to the start stop system. MES showed the clutch position value from 1.5% fully released to 99% when fully depressed , but after I did the clutch learning it now only reads 89% when fully pressed. Maybe the timings in the procedure are wrong as MES did say complete on screen in less than 2 seconds

Any other ideas guys ?

Thanks

 

[Tropicalmike]

PS Forgot to mention I tried the MES Proxi alignment procedure , But this is only for the ancilliary ECUs , it does not effect the engine ECM

 

[varesecrazy]

PS Forgot to mention I tried the MES Proxi alignment procedure , But this is only for the ancilliary ECUs , it does not effect the engine ECM

So the fuel system reset that @Sweep165 detailed, with their weird non-crank is unrelated to your issue..?

 

[Tropicalmike]

So the fuel system reset that @Sweep165 detailed, with their weird non-crank is unrelated to your issue..?

I don't think my issue is anything to do with the fuel system reset or the link about the learned parameter resets at the top of adjustments page. The engine was starting and running fine until I tried the clutch learning procedure.

 

[A3jeroen]

Did you try to physically reset the clutchswitch like I mentioned?

gr J

 

[Tropicalmike]

Did you try to physically reset the clutchswitch like I mentioned?

gr J

What is a stift? I looked above the clutch pedal but couldnt see a switch /sensor. Looks like the knee air bag needs to come out. I think it must be in the right place more or less as it had a reading from 1.5% to 99% before I cocked it up.

 

[A3jeroen]

Maybe both switches are positioned on the passenger side where they normally go on a LHD. Stift is the part of the switch that gets pressed when the pedal is pressed.

gr J