A lot of lawyers have got very rich on this one. I won't derail this thread any more but basically there is a defence to such a charge - the defence being that you can show that you had no intention of driving while over the limit.
SORN and insurance
- Thread starter johnw
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SORN and insurance
I'm confused now though.
I thought when you wanted to double check something's legal and you're insured you'd call your insurance.
I done that regarding DOC and parking, was told it's fine but i'm told on here it's not, so what am i to do next time i have a question about my insurance?
regarding the fine, i wont get one, i'll sell the car if i get a letter, to be honest i'll probably scrap it at the end of the month as i want the LPG tank for my campervan and it's worth more scrap that what i paid for it
I thought when you wanted to double check something's legal and you're insured you'd call your insurance.
I done that regarding DOC and parking, was told it's fine but i'm told on here it's not, so what am i to do next time i have a question about my insurance?
regarding the fine, i wont get one, i'll sell the car if i get a letter, to be honest i'll probably scrap it at the end of the month as i want the LPG tank for my campervan and it's worth more scrap that what i paid for it
as you have already been advised, get it in writing i phoned a man and he said i could, is no defence in a court
In my reply to sludgeguts I should have pointed out that, although insurance law doesn't require a car driven on DOC to have other cover, the new SORN and insurance rules mean that every car on the road should be insured by the owner. So it should be possible to park up and walk away as the owners insurance will cover it.
If a car that has been SORN'd is driven on DOC it raises all sorts of possibilities for the enforcement authorities. So far we haven't had any training on this scenario so i can only guess but it seems possible for a driver to be OK driving a SORN'd car on DOC but the owner could be fined under the SORN rules.
That then raises the question of what would happen if the person driving under DOC parks up and leaves a SORN'd car on the road. It would render the owner liable to charges under the SORN rules and keeping or using a car in a public place without insurance.
If a car that has been SORN'd is driven on DOC it raises all sorts of possibilities for the enforcement authorities. So far we haven't had any training on this scenario so i can only guess but it seems possible for a driver to be OK driving a SORN'd car on DOC but the owner could be fined under the SORN rules.
That then raises the question of what would happen if the person driving under DOC parks up and leaves a SORN'd car on the road. It would render the owner liable to charges under the SORN rules and keeping or using a car in a public place without insurance.
It may be that your insurers assumed the car was legal under the new SORN and insurance rules and therefore would have insurance cover provided by the owner.
I don't understand how that could be. If caught on the road without insurance a fine and seizure of the car is automatic. If not on the road, then either SORN or insure by the owner. If you have sufficient control over the vehicle to be able to take the decision to sell it, it is highly likely that you would be considered to own the vehicle. In which case you need to insure it as driving it on DOC would almost certainly not be legal.
i told them the car itself has no insurance.
i wouldn't get caught driving without insurance because i'm insured to drive it.
i'd avoid the fine under the new sorn rule since they send out a warning first before giving you a fine?
i'm still confused about insurance, if i have a question about my insurance, say if something legal for me to do or i'm insured to do it, i ring them and they say it is, am i to believe them or not? because i did regarding DOC parking and apparently they were incorrect?
My understanding Alex - you may be allowed to drive a car which has no other form of insurance on it, but the law states that vehicles which have no insurance of their own must be declared SORN, therefore they shouldn't be on the road anyway. If it's taxed, it has to have it's own insurance to avoid a fine.
The only time I can see a SORN vehicle being allowed on the road and being legal under DOC is on it's way to/from an MOT.
Edit: I am right in thinking that you can't tax without a valid MOT?
The only time I can see a SORN vehicle being allowed on the road and being legal under DOC is on it's way to/from an MOT.
Edit: I am right in thinking that you can't tax without a valid MOT?
fair enough, they don't make it easy to understand though do they
and no you can't tax without an mot unless the cars less than 3 year old
Just out of interest. Does anyone know how this new tax and insurance rule works with tradersn who have got a car with tax but are using traders policies etc while it's park on forecourts
yes if car is 3 years old or older
Just out of interest. Does anyone know how this new tax and insurance rule works with tradersn who have got a car with tax but are using traders policies etc while it's park on forecourts
didn't this already get covered? if you have sent off the bit of v5 that says its sold to a trader it don't need to be insured or sorn?
Any fine wouldn't go to you, it would go to the registered keeper of the car. If you are the owner and registered keeper (or the owner but have registered it in somebody else name) then you can't drive it on DOC.
EDIT to add
The warning letter only applies to the insurance aspect of SORN. There is an automatic £80 fixed penalty if a car is neither taxed or SORN'd. if it has been seen on the road you have to add the cost of a new tax disc - which will be back dated to the expiry of the last tax disc.
a warning to anybody reading this and seeing a way to cheap insurance. It is a well known insurance scam to register a car to somebody else and then drive it DOC. if caught you are liable to 6 points and a fine for no insurance. You and the person who registered it in their name could face charges of fraud ie obtaining a financial advantage by deception. A conviction for dishonesty of this kind will bar you from a great many professions and make it very difficult to get work that involves handling money or goods.
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it has to be a pre booked MOT and the car needs insurance but not tax. You can go to and from the MOT and, if necessary to and from a place to get it repaired if it fails.
thats beyond my knowledge but I have been advised that this is a good source of information on the subject.Just out of interest. Does anyone know how this new tax and insurance rule works with tradersn who have got a car with tax but are using traders policies etc while it's park on forecourts
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1081968471
cheers for all that John you never answered what i do if i have another legal question or question about being insured for something, if i call them up and they say i am insured as they did with DOC parking, you've said they're wrong, how do i know they're correct next time i ask them something? i thought the only way to be sure you were insured for something was to simply call the insurer up.. like i did.
you never answered what i do if i have another legal question or question about being insured for something, if i call them up and they say i am insured as they did with DOC parking, you've said they're wrong, how do i know they're correct next time i ask them something? i thought the only way to be sure you were insured for something was to simply call the insurer up.. like i did.My advice is normally to ask your insurer as they are the experts about what your insurance does or does not cover. They are not necessarily expert on other bits of motoring law for that you need a lawyer or a traffic cop. Some police traffic departments will answer questions of this nature, check your local police website for a phone number for the traffic division and ask.
In your case, as I have already said, i don't see how you legally drive a car on DOC when you admit that you will sell it at the first sign of trouble. If it is your car you can't drive it at all under DOC. If it isn't your car you wouldn't be able to decide to sell it.
At the very least you need to answer these questions.
Who bought the car?
Who drives it and who decides who can drive it?
Who is the registered keeper?
Is it taxed?
Is it SORN'd?
Is it insured other than by your DOC, and if not why isn't it declared SORN?
If it is SORN why is it being driven?
Only somebody who has the answers to those questions will be in a position to tell you if there is any effective insurance cover at all and whether or not that still applies when you have parked the car.
Alex, in your earlier thread (https://www.fiatforum.com/insurance/277107-driving-other-cars.html) you gave a link to your insurance docs, especially page 15...
"This Section will also operate whilst you are personally
Which quite clearly states that you will have third party cover when driving (a car) not owned & not leased to you.
In fact, you start off by saying you assume the car must be insured by its owner...
Your earlier comments in this thread suggest that you are, in fact, the owner of the "cheapie", so you already knew the answer?
Also, if the car was parked up in the high street whilst you went shopping, for example, how is plod to know the car is covered for you to drive third party? Their records will show that you are the registered keeper & that no insurance is operational for that reg no. And even if you are behind the wheel, you cannot declare that you are insured TP as your insurance is clear about your TP cover for driving other cars.
"This Section will also operate whilst you are personally
driving any motor vehicle not owned by you and not hired
to you under a hire purchase agreement which your
current Certificate allows you to drive"to you under a hire purchase agreement which your
Which quite clearly states that you will have third party cover when driving (a car) not owned & not leased to you.
In fact, you start off by saying you assume the car must be insured by its owner...
Your earlier comments in this thread suggest that you are, in fact, the owner of the "cheapie", so you already knew the answer?
Also, if the car was parked up in the high street whilst you went shopping, for example, how is plod to know the car is covered for you to drive third party? Their records will show that you are the registered keeper & that no insurance is operational for that reg no. And even if you are behind the wheel, you cannot declare that you are insured TP as your insurance is clear about your TP cover for driving other cars.
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honestly can't be bothered to drag this out and over analyse every tiny detail, i know i'm insured and everything's cool with my insurer as i've rang them to clarify.
Just to clear this up. As I work in the industry
DoC (Drive other Car) is a third party extension to your policy which allows you to drive a vehicle which is already insured by someone else and with their permission to drive it at the level of Third Party Only.
If the vehicle is not insured at all, look forward to getting an IN10 and 6 points for the pleasure. If you are confident enough about your insurer, why don't ou go find an ANPR van to drive by to test the theory
DoC (Drive other Car) is a third party extension to your policy which allows you to drive a vehicle which is already insured by someone else and with their permission to drive it at the level of Third Party Only.
If the vehicle is not insured at all, look forward to getting an IN10 and 6 points for the pleasure. If you are confident enough about your insurer, why don't ou go find an ANPR van to drive by to test the theory
The new rule which requires a vehicle to be either SORN'd or insured at all times does means that all vehicles being driven under DOC will already be insured by the registered keeper. If they are legal that is.
There is nothing else in road traffic law or motoring law, now or in the past, which requires a vehicle driven under DOC to be already insured by anybody else. Many insurers have other insurance as a requirement of their policy which is often mistakenly considered to be law. It isn't, its just a condition of your insurance.
If you check precedent cases from the The High Court and the Court of Appeal you will find quite a few that deal with the issue of when DOC does, or does not apply. If there was a law that required a car driven under DOC to have other cover none of those cases would have arisen as the existing cover would preclude a no insurance charge. Or the registered keeper would have been charged with no insurance. Either way, all those cases about whether or not stopping for petrol or shopping constitutes the end of DOC cover or not could not have arisen.
