Technical Slow start when cold

[gregorymay1984]

Hi. Mi 2007 doblo 1.9multijer is hard to start in the morning or when it has been sitting for few hours. Basically I have to turn the ignition on await for the fuel gauge to go all the way up and then crank it. It will usually start after three turns. If I try crank straight away it won't start or it will struggle very long... When I start it and run it for a minute it will start straight away. Battery changed, wires checked and cleaned.

 

[cris1117]

Sounds like glowplugs they can be checked with a multi meter, maybe the glowplug control unit or fuses.

 

[gregorymay1984]

My wife's car with the same engineer and will start in UK climate straight away before glow plugs heat up. It doesn't sound like glow plugs. Thank you

 

[algie oo]

Sorry but it DOES SOUND like glow plugs.

 

[porta]

It’s glow plugs and, if you’re starting it before they’ve warmed them and the cylinder up, then you’re going carbon them up or erode them…also, just as an aside, have you changed your oil, filters and flushed system recently, as this helps with ‘engine drag’ wehn it’s cold

 

[gregorymay1984]

My wife has exactly the same engine and she doesn't need to warm it up or whatever to start it. It's not even below 0 degrees. You can unplug glow plugs and it should start perfectly fine. Glow plugs start glowing after 4-5 seconds and my other 1.9jtd cars didn't have to be warmed up to start especiallywell above zero. You guys stop with the glow plugs. They don't matter in United Kingdom. Its to warm and pretty much nobody uses them.

 

[gregorymay1984]

Who is waiting 10 seconds before starting their diesel cars? Nobody. And I never had ro wait before .

 

[bugsymike]

Who is waiting 10 seconds before starting their diesel cars? Nobody. And I never had ro wait before .

So manufacturers wasted millions of pounds designing a cold start system?
If everything else is the same, I suspect your wife's car's engine has less engine wear, so higher compression. The other name for a diesel engine is CI or compression ignition. So weak compression= less heat to ignite the fuel.
I had an 05 Doblo 1.9 JTD with 220k miles on it and as it got colder a few seconds with ignition on before cranking made the difference.

 

[gregorymay1984]

So manufacturers wasted millions of pounds designing a cold start system?
If everything else is the same, I suspect your wife's car's engine has less engine wear, so higher compression. The other name for a diesel engine is CI or compression ignition. So weak compression= less heat to ignite the fuel.
I had an 05 Doblo 1.9 JTD with 220k miles on it and as it got colder a few seconds with ignition on before cranking made the difference.

They designed it to make it work in UK and Russia where the temperature falls below -20deg . They didn't waste it just considered other parts of the world. My wife's car has 200k miles and starts after 1-1.5 turns before glow plugs turn red. I do understand that glow plugs are designed to help starting the engine in cold weather but....
1)Its not even cold right now and my car struggled even a month ago when it was 16 degrees
2)I understand that the car will struggle in "cold" weather a bit more but should start not crank 12times.
3)I know it could be a low compression and worn out engine but I'm just trying to rule it out as that means I'm screwed
4) If I wait 3 seconds it will start after 3 turns and if I wait 10 seconds it will start after 12 turns.
All that has noting to do with glow plugs. I changed many glow plugs and it never worked in UK to fix slow start.

 

[bugsymike]

They designed it to make it work in UK and Russia where the temperature falls below -20deg . They didn't waste it just considered other parts of the world. My wife's car has 200k miles and starts after 1-1.5 turns before glow plugs turn red. I do understand that glow plugs are designed to help starting the engine in cold weather but....
1)Its not even cold right now and my car struggled even a month ago when it was 16 degrees
2)I understand that the car will struggle in "cold" weather a bit more but should start not crank 12times.
3)I know it could be a low compression and worn out engine but I'm just trying to rule it out as that means I'm screwed
4) If I wait 3 seconds it will start after 3 turns and if I wait 10 seconds it will start after 12 turns.
All that has noting to do with glow plugs. I changed many glow plugs and it never worked in UK to fix slow start.

Any white smoke on cranking from cold? Assuming no heater plug issue, that is usually a sign of poor compression for a diesel, plus if yours uses more engine oil or has more "blow by"and "drumming noise" when engine running and you take the oil filler cap off.
In fairness to you, I had a 2.8 Iveco diesel engine (same as Ducato) that I fitted in a boat and never needed to connect the cold start wiring and it always started first crank even with ice on the gunnels, but I had just totally rebuilt the engine.
Starter spins as fast as hers?

 

[gregorymay1984]

No obvious signs of worn out engine. I bought my wife's car with worn out engine and tried to avoid changing it . It was hard to start in early march. Fairly cold.Found 3 bad glow plugs.Changed them and no difference.

 

[bugsymike]

No obvious signs of worn out engine. I bought my wife's car with worn out engine and tried to avoid changing it . It was hard to start in early march. Fairly cold.Found 3 bad glow plugs.Changed them and no difference.

I assume the starter, battery and leads are good and when you turn the key it spins over fast enough to give good cranking compression? (Have you tried if it starts any quicker with good jump leads from a good battery on a running car, possibly with the revs up slightly on the donor vehicle?)
When it does start, is it lumpy as though trying to get on all four cylinders? (Possibly a faulty injector leaking allowing air in over night?) Not noticeable once running.
It doesn't start and die, then crank over until it runs? (I have had leaking fuel filters etc. that air gets in so the engine starts then dies and starts again lumpy but smooths out as the air is bled out by the system)
Regarding heater plugs, obviously you tested the heater plugs themselves as I would, usually just for continuity to start with and then physically to see them glowing red. The reason I say this is some people on this Forum have issues with the relays which changing cured their problem, though personally the heater plugs I find are a more common fault when testing.
I had an 03 non turbo Doblo non runner that another garage and a diagnostic company gave up on so I bought it for £300. There was a difference in battery voltage between the battery and the leads which I sorted , but the main reason was air in the system, as it was an early non turbo it didn't have a low pressure pump in the tank so no obvious leaks. I got it running with a direct feed from a can on the bonnet to the high pressure pump (only for a short test as it soon empties due to no return feed) the cause of the fault was an air leak at the plastic hose and it's connector at the fuel tank. Fiat wanted £200 for the joined flow and return pipes.
It was a poor design that relied on the high pressure pump "sucking" fuel all the way from the tank which allowed the problem to occur.

 

[gregorymay1984]

I owned at least 12 1.9jtd/multijet fiat's. Don't ask me why... I used to fix them, do cambelts, gearboxes, stopping engines... SA bit of a hobby.
When it finally starts it starts . Runs great on all cylinders. I tried huge jump pack at work and it helped a lot do I changed yhr batter. Helped for a week and it's getting worse. I think the starter motor turns rather slowly and it sounds like a bad battery after a while even though the battery is fine. Tried to compare with my wife's starter motor but it starts on a button.

 

[bugsymike]

I owned at least 12 1.9jtd/multijet fiat's. Don't ask me why... I used to fix them, do cambelts, gearboxes, stopping engines... SA bit of a hobby.
When it finally starts it starts . Runs great on all cylinders. I tried huge jump pack at work and it helped a lot do I changed yhr batter. Helped for a week and it's getting worse. I think the starter motor turns rather slowly and it sounds like a bad battery after a while even though the battery is fine. Tried to compare with my wife's starter motor but it starts on a button.

Now that is a "fetish" 12 1.9JTDs . Since 1969 at my latest count I have had over 200 cars, vans and motorcyles/scooters, all cheap bangers, but if I owned them now would be really valuable .
Do you think the windings in the starter motor are on their way out.
Do you have a clip on Ammeter that you could compare the load when cranking wife's car from cold with yours?

 

[gregorymay1984]

That's the problem. I don't have a lot of specialist equipment...

 

[bugsymike]

That's the problem. I don't have a lot of specialist equipment...

I have one really old clip on ammeter that depending which groove you put it on it could test starter load or generator input, but I also use a cheap chinese multimeter with a clamp on capability.
There are several on eBay new and used, don't know how good they are though.

 

[gregorymay1984]

I just had a cheap amp clamp from toolzone delivered. Will check soon.

 

[bugsymike]

I just had a cheap amp clamp from toolzone delivered. Will check soon.

At least you will be able to compare it with your wives car to see if it is taking more power to turn yours over

 

[cris1117]

Modern deisel engines are twist and go, no need to wait for the glow plugs they are almost instant.

 

[bugsymike]

Modern deisel engines are twist and go, no need to wait for the glow plugs they are almost instant.

Heater plugs nowadays get hot pretty quick, I had older diesel 1970 FX4 London Taxi with a BMC 2.5 engine that had a wire element heater plug that would need all of 30 seconds to get hot! Mind you when you took it out you didn't need to test it, you could see the element has burnt through.