Technical Seek reassurance

[Aad Doix]

Dear Forum.

A typical topic and I know that on paper it is not possible to reassure, but I still want to give it a try. NB. long post to clarify as much as possible.
Two issues, one regarding oil deposit and one regarding coolant fluid, the latter already discussed before in another topic.

My Panda, formerly owned by an old lady (really, I do not make this up ) and she used it for short trips and long stays in the parking lot. When bought the car underwent maintenance, an oilchange, waterpumpreplacement and coolant fluid included. Due to the fact that I now have heard a little water bubbling after the dashboard twice, I am trying to find out whether the car is losing coolant fluid or using coolant fluid. So periodically I check oil level and coolant fluid level.

I got the car almost 3 months and drove it for 1.865 miles. I never checked fluid levels when the car came back from maintenance directly but I will do from now on!
The first time when I heard a lot of water bubbling I checked the coolant fluid but couldn't see the level due to the fact that Fiat has this reservoir on the radiator itself and it is almost impossible to check the level properly. I added around 400ml and I was able to see the coolant liquid with help of a flashing light, level just above minimum, so the coolant level did drop when losing air I suppose. I remember a fair amount of air escaped when I unscrewed the cap.
Last week I heard a little bubbling again, so I checked this morning and, no air escaped, the level seemed still around minimum but could not see it properly, so I added another 600ml of coolant and now it is almost at maximum.

So, it is still unclear whether the car is using or loosing coolant, but to rule out some causes I already checked the following last week:
- no white smoke from the exhaust,
- the engine temperature remains stable (87-90 degrees Celsius), even during long periods of traffic jams and long trips (100 miles +),
- no white sludge on the oil filler cap,
- oil level is stable and the color is still brownish-gold,
- No drops of coolant found under the car so far.

So, still asking myself if this coolant issue is a problem or not, I will deaerate the cooling system this week, hopefully loosing the bubbling sounds forever and keeping the coolant fluid level stable.

But now the second question: when checking the oil filler cap I saw a very small fingertip of black sludge like substance on the filler cap, around 0.4 by 0.4 inch. It was still oily, felt a little grainy, not gummy but I was not amused. When looking inside (via the oil filler cap hole) I did not see anything wrong. And as I wrote earlier, the oil itself still got a nice healthy color. Did the car mechanic forgot to clean this cap and or is this a residue resulting from the (lack of) use of the previous owner or do I see early signs of bigger trouble?

Curious about your opinion and expertise and thanks in advance,

Kind regards,

Aad

 

[koalar]

Loosing coolant

Yes it's a problem that needs addressing immediately

It should hold a little below the maximum level, indefinitely, it's a sealed system

Bubbling is concerning

Fingers crossed it's just air entering the circuit through a hole as the coolant cools and contracts

And no combustion gasses entering the system

If everything is working properly it will self bleed eventually

Radiator, hoses and clamps, pipe across the front,, thermostat housing, 4x core plugs across the rear, core plugs behind the timing cover, core plug behind the gearbox bell housing, water pump


You can normally find a leak 95% if the time by filling up and using a light and spotting where it's damp, if it's intermittent a pressure test of the system


A bit of black sludge in the filler cap

fine

 

[Aad Doix]

Thanks for the very quick reply. I forgot to mention that the heating of the car seems to work properly. I say "seems" because it gets quite warm but if it is warm enough? I do not know. I never use heating because I get it warm quickly.

But as I understand, the tiny bit of black deposit on the filler cap I do not have to worry about now, so only the coolant mystery remains.

I do not know whether the coolant was filled till max when the waterpump was replaced. Let's assume it was. And I do think the car mechanic "forgot" that second air vent valve at the bottom of the radiator you mentioned earlier @koalar , so there was air in the system very likely.
But I added 1 liter of coolant in total in 2.5 months after two occurrences of bubbling behind the dashboard. That is too much I think. Tomorrow I will have a 85 mile trip and Friday a new bottle of coolant will arrive, so then I will bleed the system and keeps an eye on it.

I will post my findings and kind regards,

Aad

 

[The Panda Nut]

It does not sound ike a head gasket and if this is the case you are in business. Check the plastic bleed screw on the system has not been broken. Check the thermostst on the right side of the head is not leaking, check the water pumps metal cross pipe across the front of the engine is not leaking, check the rad for leaks to. You have air getting in somewhere and thuse fluid loss. The metal pipe across the front of the engine behind the exhaust pipe is top suggestion and hte radiator second. Neither are massive expensive jobs. A garage would do a pressure test for leaks for half sn hours labout and may pin pointit straight away. It could of cpourse just be trapped air now circulating and bleeding the system correctly may resolve it so try this first. SOme are a pain to get the air out and others much less so. You may need to repeat the bleeding process a few times. As Koalar says it needs sorting as these alloy engines dont tolerate lack of water and serious overheating. Whatever it is it can be fixed .

 

[The Panda Nut]

Thanks for the very quick reply. I forgot to mention that the heating of the car seems to work properly. I say "seems" because it gets quite warm but if it is warm enough? I do not know. I never use heating because I get it warm quickly.

But as I understand, the tiny bit of black deposit on the filler cap I do not have to worry about now, so only the coolant mystery remains.

I do not know whether the coolant was filled till max when the waterpump was replaced. Let's assume it was. And I do think the car mechanic "forgot" that second air vent valve at the bottom of the radiator you mentioned earlier @koalar , so there was air in the system very likely.
But I added 1 liter of coolant in total in 2.5 months after two occurrences of bubbling behind the dashboard. That is too much I think. Tomorrow I will have a 85 mile trip and Friday a new bottle of coolant will arrive, so then I will bleed the system and keeps an eye on it.

I will post my findings and kind regards,

Aad

Ha ha! I didnt realise you had the water pump changed. It took a month for our car to settle down after the waterpump was changed. In the end it stopped dropping the fluid level down and it stabilised the level and the noise went away after several sessions bleeding it. As trapped air works its way out the water level may drop. I think I added a litre of extra coolant in the month.

 

[Aad Doix]

The same here, but this coolant reservoir, Christ on a bike, it is really hard to check the fluid level. This morning:
- I checked the color of the oil and the level of coolant fluid before starting and all was well.
- When I started the engine no white smoke left the exhaust (I took a few minutes to check for sure),
- then I drove 45 miles and the engine temperature was fluctuating (frequently!) between 87 and 92 degrees Celcius.
- and at arrival checked hoses and interior heater which all were well functioning (warm and malleable hard),
- but checking the coolant level I could not do a proper check (burned my hand when trying to flashlight the reservoir, it really is hard to see what the level is ), I do not know whether the fluid is under minimum level or still at the same level as early in the morning.

At this point I do acknowledge that I do not have the proper knowledge about engine cooling. Is that level in the reservoir suppose to be the same all time or does it fluctuate due to warmth and the thermostat opened or closed?

I put a piece of cardboard underneath the car which I will check when going home after work.

I also mailed the garage asking for a leakage test and a 'sniffer'-test to check on the condition of the coolant system and head gasket. Hopefully they got time this week.

To be continued and kind regards,

Aad

 

[jrkitching]

If you're having difficulty tracking down minor coolant leaks, you can add a tracer dye which will show up under UV light. You can buy a complete kit (dye + UV torch) online for around €10-€15.

 

[jackwhoo]

A lot of people cannot correctly fill/bleed the tank on side of radiator system.
There is a set procedure in elearn that works well if followed.
It is entirely possible the garage didn't fill system correctly and it has taken this long for the air to end up in the side tank and the coolant from side tank in system.
If you bubbling / coolant noises have now stopped that is a good thing.

 

[koalar]

A lot of people cannot correctly fill/bleed the tank on side of radiator system.
There is a set procedure in elearn that works well if followed.
It is entirely possible the garage didn't fill system correctly and it has taken this long for the air to end up in the side tank and the coolant from side tank in system.
If you bubbling / coolant noises have now stopped that is a good thing.

Correct it's simple

If you fill it slowly with both bleed screws open

Not much air get trap in the first place

There a one way valve in the thermostat

If everything is done properly all the need to be done is after the first drive open the heater matrix bleed screw and top up, which is the same as elearn instructions of raising the revs and up to operating temperature, it just easier if it your car to take it for a drive

Just emptying the coolant bottles as fast as possible just wastes time and effort latter on



I have had three pandas 1.1 06, 1 2 05, 1.2 11 all are the radiator expansion tank combos with various coolant problems, some bought with the faults 3x core plugs weeping, 1x split hose, 1x head gasket, 2x thermostat, 1x radiator hole, Ix radiator corrosion on the sides, 1x quick release clamp not fitted correctly, 1x hose loose, 1x radiator cap rubber seal

And if you include general serving that 15x the coolant has been partly or fully dropped, bleeding the air has never been a problem in my experience

If it's fine before a garage changes a water pump, and a problem after, in my book the garage should sort it

 

[koalar]

The easiest way to check the coolant level I have found

Blow down a tube while lowering it, when you hear bubbles you have reached the top of the coolant

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The easiest way to check the coolant level I have found

Blow down a tube while lowering it, when you hear bubbles you have reached the top of the coolant

I have one of those super bright led lights which have a strip on the side and a single torch bulb in the end. Lowering it down the side of the reservoir with the strip light shining at the reservoir renders it semi transparent and lets you see the level highlighted against the scale. Takes just seconds and no danger to hands. You guys have said it all above so I'll just stay shtum!

 

[Aad Doix]

Thanks for all the replies. Normally I use the flashlight of my phone, but this isn't bright enough apparently. Today I will visit the garage which replaced the water pump to test and when needed bleeding the system. In the meanwhile, my 40 mile trip back home in evening rush hour yesterday went without any troubling signs, I did some parts of the highway at around 80 miles an hour and the temperature gauge stays at a healthy 90 degrees and got an overall consumption of around 1:18 (around 51 miles per gallon) which in my humble opinion is quite good.

Kind regards,

Aad

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for all the replies. Normally I use the flashlight of my phone, but this isn't bright enough apparently. Today I will visit the garage which replaced the water pump to test and when needed bleeding the system. In the meanwhile, my 40 mile trip back home in evening rush hour yesterday went without any troubling signs, I did some parts of the highway at around 80 miles an hour and the temperature gauge stays at a healthy 90 degrees and got an overall consumption of around 1:18 (around 51 miles per gallon) which in my humble opinion is quite good.

Kind regards,

Aad

I'd be well pleased with that.

 

[Yolanda]

Regards the level checking, when the engine is cold, Remove the cap and place a good LED torch/flash light on the neck then look down the side to see the water level. This can be done in broad daylight with a good torch.

 

[jrkitching]

I find that a thin strip of cardboard makes a good dipstick for those models with the expansion tank at the side of the radiator.

 

[DaveMcT]

I keep an old fireworks rocket stick as a dipstick for the 1.2 radiator coolant. Easy to clean up. Simple and effective.

I always struggle to bleed the 1.2 cooling system. So much that I considered fitting a separate tank as used on 100HP and diesel.

My solution is 3 feet of rubber tube large enough bore to fit over the heater hose bleeder point and a funnel.

Fill the cooling system and bleed as the manuals describe. My heater hose will still have air in it. Remove the bleeder screw nothing bubbles out. Fit the rubber hose and funnel. Fill the hose with coolant and run the engine. Squeezing the rad top hose pushes bubbles out into my temporary hose. When the bubbles stop, pull off the temporary hose and fit the bleed screw. It can be messy but it works.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I did a wee bit of a feature on what i do to overcome this problem when I did a belt on Becky back in 2018.

See here for more: https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/beckys-timing-belt-all-done.459967/