Technical Rusty bits - suspension
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Rusty bits - suspension
I had more thoughts on removing the lower A arm rubber bushes.
Iirc, one of the bushes can be removed by pressing the lower arm pivot pin through the arm and then the other bush can be then be removed by pushing the pin in the opposite direction.
It might be possible to use the thread on the pin plus short lengths of tube and washers to pull the bush out?
Some have reported success by supporting the A arm with the pivot pin vertically on a hard surface and driving down (yes, using a large hammer!) the arm using a length of tube or deep socket just slightly larger than the outside diameter of the rubber bush in order to dislodge the bush. I wouldn't recommend the alternative of pounding on the end of the pivot pin with a heavy hammer to dislodge the bush
As I said earlier, it's easy to do using a workshop press but not so easy without one, although heat and penetrating fluid can help greatly.
Iirc, one of the bushes can be removed by pressing the lower arm pivot pin through the arm and then the other bush can be then be removed by pushing the pin in the opposite direction.
It might be possible to use the thread on the pin plus short lengths of tube and washers to pull the bush out?
Some have reported success by supporting the A arm with the pivot pin vertically on a hard surface and driving down (yes, using a large hammer!) the arm using a length of tube or deep socket just slightly larger than the outside diameter of the rubber bush in order to dislodge the bush. I wouldn't recommend the alternative of pounding on the end of the pivot pin with a heavy hammer to dislodge the bush
As I said earlier, it's easy to do using a workshop press but not so easy without one, although heat and penetrating fluid can help greatly.
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@smahaley
Given that you have the suspension stripped out of your car, I just thought I mention this for your consideration:-
I seem to remember that when initially stripping your car, you removed the front and bumpers and commented on their considerable weight...
I don't know if you intend to refit these bumpers (some people revert to the earlier slimline chrome Euro type bumpers for styling and weight reduction reasons) but if you are considering this, bear in mind that U.S cars fitted with these 5mph bumpers had different suspension springs to cope with the extra weight and also to raise the ride height of the cars to meet U.S. regulations (which ruined the original fine handling of these cars!).
This would be an ideal time to fit appropriate springs if you intend deleting the heavy bumpers and improve the handling.
Given that you have the suspension stripped out of your car, I just thought I mention this for your consideration:-
I seem to remember that when initially stripping your car, you removed the front and bumpers and commented on their considerable weight...
I don't know if you intend to refit these bumpers (some people revert to the earlier slimline chrome Euro type bumpers for styling and weight reduction reasons) but if you are considering this, bear in mind that U.S cars fitted with these 5mph bumpers had different suspension springs to cope with the extra weight and also to raise the ride height of the cars to meet U.S. regulations (which ruined the original fine handling of these cars!).
This would be an ideal time to fit appropriate springs if you intend deleting the heavy bumpers and improve the handling.
As I have only occasional access to a pc/internet, I have disabled private messaging, otherwise anyone sending me a message might have to wait until I'm next online, could be a week or more at times...
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smahaley
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Yes - this is the offending spot-weld situation: one of the 2 bolts / studs holding the lower control arm to the center cross member.
The spot weld involves the threaded end of the bolt as well as the nut. I did try grinding (as you can see) to reduce / reform the nut to a six-sided surface that I could get a socket on.
I *think* that my best course of action - after reflecting while cleaning parts
- is to cut the nut and bolt end off so that I can back it out, and replace it all.Thoughts on that? The adventure continues…
-Sorry I have arrived late to this saga, I was trying to understand the photo.View attachment 481723
Yes - this is the offending spot-weld situation: one of the 2 bolts / studs holding the lower control arm to the center cross member.
The spot weld involves the threaded end of the bolt as well as the nut. I did try grinding (as you can see) to reduce / reform the nut to a six-sided surface that I could get a socket on.
I *think* that my best course of action - after reflecting while cleaning parts
Thoughts on that? The adventure continues…
Basically it is like the 1976 Lada 1200s etc. I used to work on back then when they were new at a dealership. Those two nuts that hold the inner end of the lower wishbone we had to slacken to alter the shims in between them to correct the castor and camber to improve steering geometry from when they left the factory. Obviously being new the nuts undid easily, we would slacken them most of the way so just a few threads holding them, then we could cut the old shims and twist them to remove or add shims to correct the geometry , once retightened they were perfectly safe. We used to do this over a pit with the car still on the ground then recheck using a Dunlop castor and camber gauge. From memory we didn't need to undo the metal sump shield to access the inner ends of the bolts which as @124BC1 mentioned I believe had a tag bent over them to stop the bolt from turning, so nothing welded into place to trap them.
What I am saying is when you do remove them make a note of the shims and where they came off as if wrong you will have heavy steering and rapid tyre wear!
The nut it's self personally I would get a small angle grinder with a very thin cutting disc (not a wide grinding disc as it appears you are using) and cut down the flat of the nut towards the pivot arm just kissing the bolt threads but not too close as to damage them, once the disc has cut the groove up to the pivot arm then a good sharp chisel will open up the nut so it comes loose from the bolt.
With luck the threads inside that were covered by the rusted nut will be still usable so a quick clean up of the threads on my bench grinders wire brush usually would be all that was need before a new nut is fitted. A wire brush on an angle grinder will work if you are careful, don't forget eye protection.
Looking at the wishbone it's self and the rust, I would be very careful not to bend it if applying force to remove those bushes so make sure it is well supported. Though long retired I still have my hydraulic press and several good size vices bolted to benches.
This photo may give a rough idea of what I mean re positioning the disc cutter against the nut.
As you can see this pic is from a Lada but may give an idea. I wonder if the bushes and ball joints are the same.
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I copied your pic and have added some color.
My approach would be to drill 2 approx. 1/8" (3mm) holes at the 2 locations indicated by the blue arrows and then try splitting the nut using a chisel.
The 'nut splitter' tool (a picture of which was kindly supplied by @Slotman above) could probably be used as there appears to be sufficient access.
I was wondering what size of angle grinder you have been using? I generally use a small 4,4.5 or 5 inch machine or a 3" air-powered cut-off disc for better control over how much material is being removed. My approach is always to do as little damage as possible when dismantling things, in this case, I'd try to remove the nut leaving the stud in situ, then assess the stud's condition, it's quite possible that the stud is indeed too badly damaged to risk re-using (this stud is heavily loaded and therefore safety critical).
Before attempting to remove the rubber bushes, I'd recommend cleaning/de-rusting the area of each outer bush indicated by the green squiggle - a good wire-brushing or emery/abrasive paper should suffice. The little flange area of the A arm to the left of the green squiggle is the area to heat with a torch before spraying with penetrating fluid.
However... The region indicated by the red arrows looks quite suspicious/dodgy - seems that someone has been welding in this area....There is no welding in this area originally. I did mention in an earlier post that this area is a potential weak point on these front crossmembers and might need attention. I haven't encountered any of these front studs breaking in use but I have seen the mounting point surrounding the stud pull away from the crossmember.
Fiat didn't use a Nylok type nut on this stud but instead used a regular ( possibly high-tensile?) nut with a heavy duty spring washer which didn't give any trouble in service. One possible reason for someone putting a spot weld on the nut/stud might be because the nut wasn't tightening...maybe the thread was stripped on the stud beneath the nut?
If the crossmember has previously been repaired by welding in the area marked by the red arrows, and also has a damaged stud it might be preferable to fit a new front crossmember for safety reasons and to avoid having to attempt another repair by welding. It could be repaired but would need to be carried out by a good (i.e. competent) welder with due regard to leaving enough space for castor/camber adjusting shims if any additional reinforcing material is added around the lower A arm mounting studs
Here's a pic of a new crossmember for a '68 - '78 model (later model crossmembers are dearer)(Note, price shown is in Euro).
My approach would be to drill 2 approx. 1/8" (3mm) holes at the 2 locations indicated by the blue arrows and then try splitting the nut using a chisel.
The 'nut splitter' tool (a picture of which was kindly supplied by @Slotman above) could probably be used as there appears to be sufficient access.
I was wondering what size of angle grinder you have been using? I generally use a small 4,4.5 or 5 inch machine or a 3" air-powered cut-off disc for better control over how much material is being removed. My approach is always to do as little damage as possible when dismantling things, in this case, I'd try to remove the nut leaving the stud in situ, then assess the stud's condition, it's quite possible that the stud is indeed too badly damaged to risk re-using (this stud is heavily loaded and therefore safety critical).
Before attempting to remove the rubber bushes, I'd recommend cleaning/de-rusting the area of each outer bush indicated by the green squiggle - a good wire-brushing or emery/abrasive paper should suffice. The little flange area of the A arm to the left of the green squiggle is the area to heat with a torch before spraying with penetrating fluid.
However... The region indicated by the red arrows looks quite suspicious/dodgy - seems that someone has been welding in this area....There is no welding in this area originally. I did mention in an earlier post that this area is a potential weak point on these front crossmembers and might need attention. I haven't encountered any of these front studs breaking in use but I have seen the mounting point surrounding the stud pull away from the crossmember.
Fiat didn't use a Nylok type nut on this stud but instead used a regular ( possibly high-tensile?) nut with a heavy duty spring washer which didn't give any trouble in service. One possible reason for someone putting a spot weld on the nut/stud might be because the nut wasn't tightening...maybe the thread was stripped on the stud beneath the nut?
If the crossmember has previously been repaired by welding in the area marked by the red arrows, and also has a damaged stud it might be preferable to fit a new front crossmember for safety reasons and to avoid having to attempt another repair by welding. It could be repaired but would need to be carried out by a good (i.e. competent) welder with due regard to leaving enough space for castor/camber adjusting shims if any additional reinforcing material is added around the lower A arm mounting studs
Here's a pic of a new crossmember for a '68 - '78 model (later model crossmembers are dearer)(Note, price shown is in Euro).
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Smahaley, the expert advice on this topic, the voices of true experience, are truly priceless!
-Sorry I have arrived late to this saga, I was trying to understand the photo.
Basically it is like the 1976 Lada 1200s etc. I used to work on back then when they were new at a dealership. Those two nuts that hold the inner end of the lower wishbone we had to slacken to alter the shims in between them to correct the castor and camber to improve steering geometry from when they left the factory. Obviously being new the nuts undid easily, we would slacken them most of the way so just a few threads holding them, then we could cut the old shims and twist them to remove or add shims to correct the geometry , once retightened they were perfectly safe. We used to do this over a pit with the car still on the ground then recheck using a Dunlop castor and camber gauge. From memory we didn't need to undo the metal sump shield to access the inner ends of the bolts which as @124BC1 mentioned I believe had a tag bent over them to stop the bolt from turning, so nothing welded into place to trap them.
What I am saying is when you do remove them make a note of the shims and where they came off as if wrong you will have heavy steering and rapid tyre wear!
The nut it's self personally I would get a small angle grinder with a very thin cutting disc (not a wide grinding disc as it appears you are using) and cut down the flat of the nut towards the pivot arm just kissing the bolt threads but not too close as to damage them, once the disc has cut the groove up to the pivot arm then a good sharp chisel will open up the nut so it comes loose from the bolt.
With luck the threads inside that were covered by the rusted nut will be still usable so a quick clean up of the threads on my bench grinders wire brush usually would be all that was need before a new nut is fitted. A wire brush on an angle grinder will work if you are careful, don't forget eye protection.
Looking at the wishbone it's self and the rust, I would be very careful not to bend it if applying force to remove those bushes so make sure it is well supported. Though long retired I still have my hydraulic press and several good size vices bolted to benches.
This photo may give a rough idea of what I mean re positioning the disc cutter against the nut.
As you can see this pic is from a Lada but may give an idea. I wonder if the bushes and ball joints are the same?
I agree (as usual) with all the above sound advice from our esteemed fellow member @bugsymike
(I was typing my post and spending time coloring it in so bugsymike beat me to it, hence we both covered some of the same points).
The parts diagrams of the Lada look the same as the original Fiat ones except for the part numbers. I think the modern replacement ball-joints typically use the type of rubber dust boot similar to what is found on steering track rod ends whereas Fiat and Lada used a different style - rubber boot attached to a thin metal mounting plate.
From what I've heard, at least some of the replacement parts currently supplied for the 124 Spider were either of Lada origin (e.g. ignition switches) or from Fiats produced in other countries, Turkey being afaik a very prominent manufacturer of replacement parts. Much of the 'underpinnings' of the 124 Spider is the same as the 124 Saloon (Sedan) which was produced in Turkey as well as the Lada Saloons.
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Re the Lada ignition switches sold for Fiats, the Lada ones used to pack up in the showroom on brand new cars, I fitted several.I agree (as usual) with all the above sound advice from our esteemed fellow member @bugsymike
The parts diagrams of the Lada look the same as the original Fiat ones except for the part numbers. I think the modern replacement ball-joints typically use the type of rubber dust boot similar to what is found on steering track rod ends whereas Fiat and Lada used a different style - rubber boot attached to a thin metal mounting plate.
From what I've heard, at least some of the replacement parts currently supplied for the 124 Spider were either of Lada origin (e.g. ignition switches) or from Fiats produced in other countries, Turkey being afaik a very prominent manufacturer of replacement parts. Much of the 'underpinnings' of the 124 Spider is the same as the 124 Saloon (Sedan) which was produced in Turkey as well as the Lada Saloons.
Mainly due to the lack of a relay in the starter solenoid circuit as they all melted the plastic cam that held the switch against it's contacts.
Another possible way of removing that lower A arm nut would be to use what is called an Annular Cutter - this is a type of drill/core drill that removes a circle/ring of metal leaving the core untouched. It is a somewhat specialised tool typically only found in machine shops or industrial settings, it requires a different type of drill to operate it. But some here may have access to such a tool.... Lots of info online if you search for Annular Cutters
Here's one example:-
Here's one example:-
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smahaley
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Wry helpful thank you!
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smahaley
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smahaley
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Absolutely - I brag often and annoyingly to my wife and anyone within earshot of my long-distance expert coaches who so kindly provide detailed advice! You among them!
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smahaley
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Interesting: here, we rudely and ungraciously refer to these as “hole saws” - one of which I used to deaden the end of my left index finger. What can I say. I have been and may continue to be an idiot. I looked at some in the DIY store recently as I was considering my options…
In the past I had Magnetic drills that used similar design cutting bits, but the tool was quite large and without a firm base the cutting bits would try to wander as they needed the powerful magnet to keep them on course. These may be different I don't know.
My preference is as we have all discussed, cut using a thin cutting disc down the side of the nut and then once weakened use a sharp chisel to remove the rest of the nut so bolt can fall away hopefully with no further damage than the heavy rust, I have used this method many times with success as with care you can not even mark the edge of the bolt threads so just have to buy a new nut.
This is the tool I used, great for cutting holes in steel girders whilst upside down hanging on their powerful magnet, I even swung on one in the air when I weighed 16 stone(224lbs, I am not that heavy these days
) but unsuitable for your needs.Attachments
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AND, best of all, the expert advice is PRICE-Less....
Over here, "hole saws" are the type that has a central drill bit surrounded by what looks like a saw blade bent into a circle - o.k for soft materials but not really suitable for steel, nor do they appear afaik to be made in a size small enough to just fit over a 10?mm stud.
I read recently that some hole saws have variable pitch teeth to reduce vibration and improve chip (i.e the little bits of metal being removed) clearance.
More random thoughts:-
Note carefully how far the bushes are pressed in before removing the old ones, iirc the top arm bushes have little projections on the bush outer metal part to indicate how far they enter the arm - if you press the bushes in too far, the upper arm won't fit onto its mounting.
The lower arm spindle (on which the arm pivots) has iirc a washer/spacer ring each end between the spindle and the bush, don't forget to fit these washers/spacer rings.
And, as all the 'shop manuals advise, don't tighten up any of the suspension arm (front or rear suspension) mountings until the weight of the car is on its wheels.
Alternatively, jack up the suspension, F or R, until the suspension is at normal ride height, then tighten - remember you won't be able to jack up the front suspension sufficiently until the engine and transmission is re-installed in the car. (because until then it's too light in the front to compress the springs).
These rubber bushes are designed to operate in torsion as the wheels move up and down in use (unlike the Urethane conversions), they should be under no torsion with the car at normal ride height i.e. with the car on it's wheels.
Note carefully how far the bushes are pressed in before removing the old ones, iirc the top arm bushes have little projections on the bush outer metal part to indicate how far they enter the arm - if you press the bushes in too far, the upper arm won't fit onto its mounting.
The lower arm spindle (on which the arm pivots) has iirc a washer/spacer ring each end between the spindle and the bush, don't forget to fit these washers/spacer rings.
And, as all the 'shop manuals advise, don't tighten up any of the suspension arm (front or rear suspension) mountings until the weight of the car is on its wheels.
Alternatively, jack up the suspension, F or R, until the suspension is at normal ride height, then tighten - remember you won't be able to jack up the front suspension sufficiently until the engine and transmission is re-installed in the car. (because until then it's too light in the front to compress the springs).
These rubber bushes are designed to operate in torsion as the wheels move up and down in use (unlike the Urethane conversions), they should be under no torsion with the car at normal ride height i.e. with the car on it's wheels.
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Yes, probably best to wait until you've had an opportunity to carefully examine the crossmember before deciding how best to proceed - it may indeed be repairable (see, even I don't like spending your money
).Upon further consideration, I think that a new bolt/stud should be fitted out of caution, apart from possibly/likely damaged threads, the spot welding may have weakened the stud material - heating and then allowing to cool slowly anneals (softens) steel.
I still think it would be interesting to try to remove the nut anyway just to see if the thread under the nut was indeed stripped and consequently it was decided to add a spot weld?
Here's a picture of a crossmember (for a '70-'72 model?, so may not be the same as your car's) that shows the crossmember bolts/studs being supplied separately - if you enlarge it you may be able to see that the bolt/stud seems to have a square? head (but I seem to recall that they originally had a circular head with a flat to prevent turning?) .
If the stock bolt/stud isn't available, -and my searching didn't find any available as a separate part other that when supplied loose with the aforementioned crossmember for a different model, - it would probably be possible to slightly modify a regular hex headed bolt of the same strength/size to fit.
